Top Tier Amps

I have heard the Atma Sphere MA1's and the M1 preamp (which sound great by the way) but not their top of the line amps. I would put them Tier 2. Same for BAT but I have not heard their latest and greatest REX gear. You really don't hear much about both brands lately though.

I really like both as well.
 
Might not be possible to really answer this, but hypothetically, how do you compare a "lower-end model" from a "higher tier" manufacturer, to a higher-end model from a lower-tier manufacturer.

For instance, might we expect that the Ayre VX-r Twenty is equivalent to/better/worse than, the T+A A 200? Legit question in a way, since I'm actually considering those, but have only heard the Ayre and have no way of hearing the T+A although it's now interesting since it was rated well by @Mike and gets rave reviews.
 
jmusica said:
Might not be possible to really answer this, but hypothetically, how do you compare a "lower-end model" from a "higher tier" manufacturer, to a higher-end model from a lower-tier manufacturer.

For instance, might we expect that the Ayre VX-r Twenty is equivalent to/better/worse than, the T+A A 200? Legit question in a way, since I'm actually considering those, but have only heard the Ayre and have no way of hearing the T+A although it's now interesting since it was rated well by @Mike and gets rave reviews.
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It’s a very fair point and one I had to think about when I put my own amp in Tier 3, even though, it’s the 500 in the series and second from the top. I think it’s fair to say that any brand can move up or down a peg based on the model being discussed in light of the brand itself, etc.


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Sorry to further this threads’divergence but I heard Mike’s Block Audio mono SE amps and preamp yesterday with all Nordost cabling, an Aurender N30SA and Esoteric K1X going into a pair of Kharma Elegance DB11-S and it was one of, if not the best, sounding systems I have ever heard.
 
Ah I see why the Sonus Faber are up for sale! :yahoo1:

crwilli said:
Sorry to further this threads divergence but I heard Mikes Block audio mono SE amps and preamp yesterday with all Nordost cabling, an Aurender N30SA and Esoteric K1X going into a pair of Kharma Elegance DB11-S and it was one of, if not the best, sounding systems I have ever heard.
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jmusica said:
Might not be possible to really answer this, but hypothetically, how do you compare a "lower-end model" from a "higher tier" manufacturer, to a higher-end model from a lower-tier manufacturer.

For instance, might we expect that the Ayre VX-r Twenty is equivalent to/better/worse than, the T+A A 200? Legit question in a way, since I'm actually considering those, but have only heard the Ayre and have no way of hearing the T+A although it's now interesting since it was rated well by @Mike and gets rave reviews.
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And also worth considering is that many times lower tier models use a different tech then higher tier models... case in point is the T+A A200. It is using the Purifier Class D tech. I think this tech is fantastic (I own the NAD C298 using the same tech), however it is completely different then previous model (I owned the T+A Amp 8 for example), and other models in their lineup. However I totally trust T+A and if they are offering it I personally believe it is worthy.
 
jmusica said:
Might not be possible to really answer this, but hypothetically, how do you compare a "lower-end model" from a "higher tier" manufacturer, to a higher-end model from a lower-tier manufacturer.
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This is a great point, nicely demonstrated by the Parasound JC1+, Bryson 28B cubed and the PS Audio BHK 300 mono amplifiers. All perhaps at a performance level one tier up from the rest of their kin.
 
Kippyy said:
Mike,
I'm intrigued by the Block amps.
As they are Class A, do they run hot inside a cabinet, or just warm?
Barry
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Hi Barry,

They are fabulous amps and beat some costing 3 times as much in our shootouts. I would however never put them in a cabinet. They are best out in the open and best on their own amp stands.

You’re talking about $60K/pair for amps beating amps costing much more. They deliver 200 watts/channel of pure class A plus another 300 watts/channel of AB beyond the first 200 of class A. They have the slam of Soulution, bass of Gryphon and a tube midrange and top end.

They also work best with the matching preamp as it controls the amps, reads the temperature on the front display and can put them into eco mode when not in use (but staying on).

But like all class A amps, they run hot when in use.

Mike


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Where would Bakoon or Enleum hit your list?

Have to say I think I’m happier with the Enleum than I was with the Ayre MX-Rs or AX-5. Different system so hard to compare but the Enleum wants for nothing immediately obvious to me.
 
jmusica said:
Where would Bakoon or Enleum hit your list?

Have to say I think I’m happier with the Enleum than I was with the Ayre MX-Rs or AX-5. Different system so hard to compare but the Enleum wants for nothing immediately obvious to me.
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Tier 4.


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sb6 said:
Not too long ago I spent quite a bit of time researching and pre - COVID demoing many amps on your list. Here's a few more I'd add:

Tier 1: Lamm
Tier 2: Burmester, T+A, Merrill

Also, FWIW I've heard CH Precision several times and never found them to be cold, dry and sterile sounding at all. I did find them to be the most dynamic and the fastest amps I've ever heard. They were the closest to a real band I've ever heard in terms of overall accuracy / realism on a pair of Arrakis in a well - set up system.

Finally I'd put Audionet back in the Tier one category. Their Heisenberg amps are over $100K and I can attest to them certainly competing with Gryphon and CH Precision.

My 2 cents :-)
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I would put Burmester in top tier also, their best offerings are certainly some of the best (for example Burmester 159 power amp).
 
Thoughts on where current Mark Levinson and Krell gear fit into this hierarchy?
 
I'm late to this tier party but perception is everything and price point, looks, and reviews matter tremendously. Just ask those in the wine industry.
We own a BMW sedan, a mercedes crossover, and drove almost every SUV out there. Genesis was easily amongst the best. Easily. Sitting at the cramped Hyundai dealership with 50 customers and salespeople smoking at the door did move it down a few tiers however....
 
Edward said:
I'm late to this tier party but perception is everything and price point, looks, and reviews matter tremendously. Just ask those in the wine industry.
We own a BMW sedan, a mercedes crossover, and drove almost every SUV out there. Genesis was easily amongst the best. Easily. Sitting at the cramped Hyundai dealership with 50 customers and salespeople smoking at the door did move it down a few tiers however....
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Agree! Perception is subjective. In audio, folks will hear/perceive whatever they think they hear. However, the higher the price the most likely it is that it will influence their perception of what they hear (higher price = better). It has been studied; it is called confirmation bias. This whole thread (over 350 post by now) has been about perception (i.e., subjective). But if perception/subjective satisfies a person's wants/needs, it is all good!

If you do your homework and go beyond the subjective, hyped/pricey stuff, and audio myths (!) you can find excellent audio options without overpaying.

That also applies to cars and wines.

With cars, for example, the Nissan GT-R made Porsche get their act together. In 2008/2009, for half the price, the GT-R ate P-Turbos for lunch on the track. A year or so later, it pushed Porsche to add PDK transmissions to their cars. Another example, when the Lexus LX 400 first arrived, it was priced much cheaper than the equivalent Mercedes and it was looked down upon by Mercedes owners. Your comment about Genesis is valid, and with time, they may be able to achieve something similar to what Lexus has achieved. It takes time.

Regarding wines, many brands benefit from name recognition and pricing. In many ways, wine connoisseurs (some may call the them snobs) are like certain audiophiles: they hate blind testing. They do not want to admit that a cheap wine can taste better than their pricey bottle. When you go to a restaurant with a fancy wine list, you usually get the best value with wines that are not well known. They are also usually priced much lower (like 2X street price versus 3X or 4X multiplier).
 
PDK transmissions are not new to porsche, as they used them at leman as far back as 1984, so very unlikely Nissan forced Porsche to do didley crap , much less eat Porsche's at the track ..

That would be leading from behind :roflmao:
 
Topics like this are always both interesting -- and frustrating -- to read. My primary complaint about a topic like "Top Tier Amplifiers" is its extraordinary subjectivity. We all know that what we hear is not an individual component; rather, it is a system -- which means its output is impacted not only by each component's individual performance but also by the manner in which each interacts with all of the system's other components. In fact, the only way there would be any validity to an assessment of a particular component's quality of performance would be to establish a "control" system as the baseline standard and then introduce (in this case, the subject amplifier) the component being assessed and then replacing, one by one, that amplifier with the amplifiers of its assumed competitors.

The secondary problem, of course, is that it is, in fact, absurd to assume (1) that the performance of one model of a manufacturer's line of amplifiers is equaled by the performance of all of its other amplifiers and (2) that the performance of the subject amplifier in the control system would be equaled by its performance in all other systems -- insofar as how the output from that system's loudspeakers actually sounds.

This is the basis of my underlying gripe in all subjective-based reviews where a component is inserted and audibly evaluated without any comparison to similar components of its primary competitors or how it impacts the sound in any other system. I wish that the leading reviewers maintained a "control" system and then did a comparison of a number of, say, DACs. All we consumers have now is a cacophony of individual opinions of individual components over a period of time. I have to also say that, while I don't think that objective instrumentation-based reviews are the definitive answer, I do think that John Atkinson's tests in Stereophile are of some indisputable value.
 
Your wine analogy is not correct. I was in the business and I can tell you that oenophiles usually like to taste blind. It does two things, it exposes overpriced wines and sharpens the palate. Regarding wine lists, lesser known wines usually carry a higher markup since it's harder to price shop them. Santa Margarita PG for example is on every Italian list at every crummy restaurant. The patrons know exactly how much it costs at retail and determine whether or not it's worth it based on what they can buy it for in a store. Higher priced wines (collectibles) generally carry a lower % markup due to the overall price tag. Generally restaurants have a formula, markups are usually 2 1/2 times the wholesale price and on by the glass programs the first glass will usually cover the cost of the bottle and the rest is profit. There is a lot of waste so in their minds it justifies the higher margin.
 
When i dated a lot in NYC 100 years ago, i would always bring a bottle of Santa Margarita PG. Good to see its still cruising along, albeit at crummy restaurants....:)
 
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