Toe in or out ?

Toe in or out ?

  • Toe in

    Votes: 18 100.0%

  • Toe out

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Total voters
    18
Paul

Paul

Senior Member
Joined
Apr 4, 2013
Messages
4,977
Location
Toronto,Ontario
Hi Guys. I was browsing in the audio shop and met this guy who was doing the replacement on their speakers. we were chit chat for a bit and he invite me over to his house to listen his system. He had a jeff rowland and Kharma speakers and his speakers were toe out and sounds was incredible. I thought toe in was always an ideal but not anymore.

I went home and toe out my speakers and "WoW" my sound stage was got much bigger and depth was just amazing.
I feel like I got whole new system.

How you guys doing it ? Toe in is better for you ? if so what angle ?
 
My TADs are supposed to be toed in and crossed just in front on me. I've tried it all ways and this way seems the best.
 
Usually toe in creates a more pin point center image (I use the opening of Livingston Taylor's - Isn't She Lovely) to really dial in that center image. It should mirror the width of the mouth of a singer for example (3/4 inches) and not 4 feet wide!

Toe out can create a wider soundstage at the expense of a sharp centered image.

YMMV.
 
It also sometimes depends on the speaker. For example, my DCM TF-600s should not be toe-in or out, but straight ahead spaced evenly with the label side on the inside or left-hand side if your facing them. For my Paradigms due to the room, they are toe-in a little more than normal so they can cross as close to my sitting spot as possible. I'd like to have them crossing just in front, but in the room where I'm at it would cause severe phasing issues. Now in my vintage system in another room I have my Polks toe-in slightly as per what I always thought, but I think I'll try them toe-out slightly since the room does not have a listening spot proper.
 
For stereo music listening my speakers are designed to be facing straight forward. ...Excellent off-axis dispersion.

And for movies I prefer toe in; to the main listening position. ...All nine speakers.

And for multichannel music (3.0 - 5.0 - 5.1) from SACDs and DVD-Audio; it's a delicate balance, between and according to various music recordings (none two are equal).

* But it's very interesting Paul what you just mentioned above, and worth experimenting.
...Fine-tuning the right balance between soundstage's width and pinpoint imaging. ...That spooky holographic realism. ...Right in your own room, within your own walls, own furniture, and own set of ears. ...Total ecstasy. ...It's a strike that only each one of us can find, or not.

______________

- The speaker's designer (recommendation based on the speaker's overall design, external and internal), in conjunction with our room, them speakers in relation to their positioning (separation between them, distance from the front, side walls, and our ears), and our own 'sound' preference, dictates what proper amount of toe in or toe out is best preferable. ...Duh. :D
 
NorthStar said:
For stereo music listening my speakers are designed to be facing straight forward. ...Excellent off-axis dispersion.

And for movies I prefer toe in; to the main listening position. ...All nine speakers.

And for multichannel music (3.0 - 5.0 - 5.1) from SACDs and DVD-Audio; it's a delicate balance, between and according to various music recordings (none two are equal).

* But it's very interesting Paul what you just mentioned above, and worth experimenting.
...Fine-tuning the right balance between soundstage's width and pinpoint imaging. ...That spooky holographic realism. ...Right in your own room, with your own walls, own furniture, and own set of ears. ...Total ecstasy. ...It's a strike that only each one of us can find, or not.

______________

- The speaker's designer, in conjunction with our room, and our preference, dictates what proper amount of toe in or toe out is best preferable. ...Duh. :D
Click to expand...

Very well said ... Bob.

I found another reason to like my VA Music speakers better :) thanks to their swivel midrange driver.
 
BlueMcIntosh said:
Very well said ... Bob.

I found another reason to like my VA Music speakers better :) thanks to their swivel midrange driver.
Click to expand...

Yeah, that's a very cool feature, easy and practical. ...Same with various Wilson model loudspeakers (vertical & horizontal angles adjustability).

* When your speakers are seven hundred pounds (for the pair), experimenting with toe in and toe out requires agility (mental) from the listener. ...And physical too. ;)

And in this great hobby of ours, experimenting is everything.
 
I have my cone speakers in the living room toed in to cross about 4 feet in front of the main listening position which is about 15 feet from the speakers. In the listening room, the IRS is facing straight into the room with no toe in at all and the main listening position about 20 feet from the speakers.
 
New in this forum (FRANCE)a little question to GaryProtein what is the configuration of your XVR 1 crossover, what is the best for IRS V 24dB/octave
what frequency for low, medium and high. thanks
 
Welcome to the forum hifi44!

Thank you for joining.
 
Last edited:
hifi44 said:
New in this forum (FRANCE)a little question to GaryProtein what is the configuration of your XVR 1 crossover, what is the best for IRS V 24dB/octave
what frequency for low, medium and high. thanks
Click to expand...

In case you're not completely familiar with it, I want to emphasize that the IRS-V comes with its own crossover that goes between the woofer tower and midrange/tweeter towers. It was designed to be bi-amped, having a passive crossover between the midrange and tweeters. The original crossover slopes were all 12 dB/octave and I used the slopes.

There are a few selectable crossover points in the original Infinity crossover you can use between the woofer and midrange section and the usual crossover point is about 70Hz at 12 dB/octave, but if I recall you could select up to around 95 Hz. I don't recall exactly, but if you're interested I'll look it up in the owners manual. The midrange tweeter crossover in the original system is about 4500 Hz.

In my tri-amped system with the XVR1, I tested a few different crossover points at the low end, and decided I liked the woofer/midrange crossover point to be 106 Hz. The midrange/tweeter crossover point is 4800 Hz, essentially the same as original. Both crossover frequencies are at 12 dB/octave slopes.

Do you have an IRS and are you planing to do this modification? There are wiring changes you need to make in the midrange/tweeter tower if you do this, which includes disconnecting the midrange/tweeter crossover in the speaker. You also still need the Infinity crossover because it contains the relays that power on the woofer amplifiers, but that's all it does. It has nothing in the signal path with this modification.
 
Thanks GaryProtein, yes i own an IRS V and want to start with a 2 way XRV1. I don't want to use the passive crossover for mid/hi under the mid/Hi base and
it will be possible only when my system will be tri amped as you. With a 2 way crossover XVR1 i still need the passive crossover. i'm an Infinity lover since 1977 i had first Qb then QLS i still own them and now IRS V. i like your rosewood finish very beautiful. In my system i use Audio research CD5, Audio research ref 5 preamp and Pass Labs amps
 
hifi44 said:
Thanks GaryProtein, yes i own an IRS V and want to start with a 2 way XRV1. I don't want to use the passive crossover for mid/hi under the mid/Hi base and
it will be possible only when my system will be tri amped as you. With a 2 way crossover XVR1 i still need the passive crossover. i'm an Infinity lover since 1977 i had first Qb then QLS i still own them and now IRS V. i like your rosewood finish very beautiful. In my system i use Audio research CD5, Audio research ref 5 preamp and Pass Labs amps
Click to expand...


I'm going to say DON'T DO IT!

The VXR1 may not be compatible with the Infinity crossover--and I mean it will not work at all. In your scenario, you will need the XVR1 to follow the Infinity crossover to divide the midranges and tweeters and you will still need an extra stereo or pair of monoblock amplifiers. The XVR1 would go after the Infinity crossover and BEFORE the power amps.

Changing out the Infinity crossover for the XVR1 will not give you the improvement you are looking for. The Infinity crossover is a very good one. Either do the three way or don't do anything.

I thought I would get extra amps and use the Bryston 10B-STD crossover to save a few dollars to divide the midranges and tweeters, and it did not work at all in the system. There was nothing wrong with the Bryston crossover. I tested it in another system I own and it worked perfectly. There was extremely low volume from the mid/tweets and trust me, it flat out did not work. All you will be saving is the cost of a second XVR1 control module and I promise it will cost you lots of heartache.

Get the three way XVR1 and be done with it. It will work. What you are describing is penny wise and pound foolish and you won't be happy. Make all the crossover circuitry the same. XVR1 all the way. Don't mess around with this, you have to do it right. You could also severely damage your system if you mess it up.

ALSO, keep in mind the woofer amps are single ended and your Pass amps for midranges and tweeters you probably want balanced. With the three way XVR1 you can do that.
 
Mike said:
Usually toe in creates a more pin point center image (I use the opening of Livingston Taylor's - Isn't She Lovely) to really dial in that center image. It should mirror the width of the mouth of a singer for example (3/4 inches) and not 4 feet wide!

Toe out can create a wider soundstage at the expense of a sharp centered image.

YMMV.
Click to expand...

Game, set and match! Took the words right out of my mouth Mike :D
 
To expound on Mike's post, more toe in equals less room interaction and more direct sound, toe out does the opposite. The more direct sound, the smaller the soundstage, but the more detail you're hearing due to the lessened amount of reflections.
 
Face said:
To expound on Mike's post, more toe in equals less room interaction and more direct sound, toe out does the opposite. The more direct sound, the smaller the soundstage, but the more detail you're hearing due to the lessened amount of reflections.
Click to expand...

Good points!! Thanks!
 
It's funny this was brought up just last week I was talking with a speaker designer friend of mine about my room and system to toe in or leave them facing forward. He said the way he design his crossovers with the phase response of the tweeter that there no need to toe the speakers in and if you feel the need to only move them slightly in. I took some of the thing he said into account and move moved my speakers around in my room I defiantly heard a difference sound stage got wider I have to still do some more experiments as I am redoing my room and I want to do some before and after measurement’s with my software.
 
gooch said:
It's funny this was brought up just last week I was talking with a speaker designer friend of mine about my room and system to toe in or leave them facing forward. He said the way he design his crossovers with the phase response of the tweeter that there no need to toe the speakers in and if you feel the need to only move them slightly in. I took some of the thing he said into account and move moved my speakers around in my room I defiantly heard a difference sound stage got wider I have to still do some more experiments as I am redoing my room and I want to do some before and after measurement’s with my software.
Click to expand...

Interesting. The room plays such a big role too.
 
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