Thoughts on these mid-priced line stages?

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2FlyingYorkies

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After lots of good feedback on my original "I'm starting from scratch, please help" thread, I've decided to abandon the idea of a HT processor with room correction and just go for straight 2-channel line stage. Lots of research done on 2-channel preamps, and I've narrowed the list down to a few items that generally meet my needs and budget. A few thoughts on what I'm looking for: 1) solid state, 2) reasonably neutral sound, leaning warm, with full bass, 3) prefer 2 balanced inputs, but not a deal breaker, 4) remote control for at least volume and source (this is a deal breaker item for my wife), 5) no built in DACs or streamers - I want to do these things as separates to facilitate future upgrades.

The preamps I'm looking at are (in rough order of ascending price):
  • Hegel P20
  • AVM PA 3.2
  • Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE stage 2
  • Jeff Rowland Capri S2
  • Ayre K-5XEmp
  • Parasound JC2 BP
  • Audionet Pre1 G3 (this is a demo unit I can get at a discount that just hits the top of my price range; otherwise it's quite a bit too expensive)
Will likely be driving one of several N-Core based class D amps, with most tracks sourced from an Aurender N100H or an Oppo 205. No vinyl foreseen at this moment.

Would love to hear your thoughts on these units, and if there's something I'm obviously missing in the "under 5k" range.

Edit: I should probably mention that none of these are available at retailers anywhere near me (all i can get locally is the Classe CP-800 and the McIntosh line), so I'm going to be relying on input from you guys, a hopefully generous return policy, and some good luck...
 
You might want to try a tube pre with ncore based amp....passive preamps are great provided your upstream electronics are excellent.
 
Have you considered an integrated amplifier? One without a DAC and or phono stage?
Is your main source an Oppo 205?

If so, have you thought of just driving those amps via the Oppo directly? Since you have digital only sources.

Although you mentioned not having a local dear with a lot of those respective brands but, in the end system synergy and subjective preferences come into play.

Perhaps you can find an online dealer that offer a decent return policy on some of the brands.

To that end, given your requirements and list. I can only speak for Parasound and Audionet. Parasound is the warmer and more modest choice. A great value on that list of brands.

Audionet is very neutral, clean and highly resolving. However, I'd recommend having a really high resolving source in front these electronics. They will pass and not "color" the source in front of them. I've only heard them with extremely high end analog Kronos Proand an Estoeric K01X digital player. Amazing both times.

I'd also like to suggest Pass Labs XP-10 and McIntosh C47 to your list. These are warmer solid state pre amps. Can't go wrong with either of those brands.

Best of luck in your search.
 
A friend of mine has a Parasound JC2 with a pair of Nuforce Model9se v3 monoblocks, PSA DSD DAC and PSB Synchrony speakers and he loves the preamp. He just bought it a few months ago.

Audioadvisor sells them and has a good return policy.
 
2FlyingYorkies said:
After lots of good feedback on my original "I'm starting from scratch, please help" thread, I've decided to abandon the idea of a HT processor with room correction and just go for straight 2-channel line stage. Lots of research done on 2-channel preamps, and I've narrowed the list down to a few items that generally meet my needs and budget. A few thoughts on what I'm looking for: 1) solid state, 2) reasonably neutral sound, leaning warm, with full bass, 3) prefer 2 balanced inputs, but not a deal breaker, 4) remote control for at least volume and source (this is a deal breaker item for my wife), 5) no built in DACs or streamers - I want to do these things as separates to facilitate future upgrades.

The preamps I'm looking at are (in rough order of ascending price):
  • Hegel P20
  • AVM PA 3.2
  • Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE stage 2
  • Jeff Rowland Capri S2
  • Ayre K-5XEmp
  • Parasound JC2 BP
  • Audionet Pre1 G3 (this is a demo unit I can get at a discount that just hits the top of my price range; otherwise it's quite a bit too expensive)
Will likely be driving one of several N-Core based class D amps, with most tracks sourced from an Aurender N100H or an Oppo 205. No vinyl foreseen at this moment.

Would love to hear your thoughts on these units, and if there's something I'm obviously missing in the "under 5k" range.

Edit: I should probably mention that none of these are available at retailers anywhere near me (all i can get locally is the Classe CP-800 and the McIntosh line), so I'm going to be relying on input from you guys, a hopefully generous return policy, and some good luck...
Click to expand...

In that list, I like the W4S, Ayre and Parasound. I would probably go with Ayre or Classe. Don't discount the CP-800 you mention. It's very good. I would pick that one to be honest. I owned it and it's excellent. Check out Atkinson's review of the CP800.
 
I'm biased towards the AudioNet. That said, I feel its on a different level compared to the Ayre and Parasound which I have had in my home. Plus with the option to add one of the outboard power supplies later will bring it into reference class.
With it being used, maybe call Bill Parish at GTT audio in NJ. He's the importer and see what kind of support he might offer. Good Luck!
 
You are smart to look for a preamp with a good return policy if you can't audition one with your system. We can recommend preamps but it is all about system matching and personal tastes. Music Direct also has a decent return policy. You may want to consider a BAT VK-23se or 43se preamp. They are solid state and may give you the sound you are looking for. I own a VK-51se.

https://www.musicdirect.com/preamp/bat-vk-23se-line-stage-preamp
 
Thanks for the feedback

mdp632 said:
Have you considered an integrated amplifier? One without a DAC and or phono stage?
Is your main source an Oppo 205?
Click to expand...

The main source will likely be the Aurender N100H, as it will internally hold (or have network access to) all of my CDs, and will be able to stream hi-rez media. The Oppo will likely see duty primarily for movies or other audio discs that haven't been ripped. So the DAC attached to the Aurender and Oppo will ultimately be the primary item connected to the preamp. I also have a few other analog sources that will be used less frequently, but they still need to be connected somewhere. You could probably argue that I could just use a DAC with an analog input or two, and drive the amps directly with that. I'm not quite ready to go down that path, though.

I've thought about an integrated, and don't really have anything against the idea beyond ease of upgrade and available cool-running power. If you have something in mind, I'm happy to investigate.

In response to some of the other suggestions:

Really don't want to deal with tubes in this system. I won't be able to leave things powered on all the time, and I'm not sure I have the patience for them. But the underlying thought about adding tube warmth is well noted.

I'll definitely take a closer look at the Parasound, given the positive comments here.
Classe will also get a second look - I suspect my local guy will let his go for less than the $6k list price given that there's a new Delta series on the way.
W4S feels like the value play of the bunch to me, but I'm not entirely sure why. Perhaps it's the slightly clunky looking aesthetics, or the fact that the upgraded Stage 2 version is twice the price of the base model.

As an aside, It's interesting to read comments about "value" (including my own just above!) - This preamp alone is going to cost more than my not entirely awful old system, even adjusted for 20 years of inflation. Now, I don't mean that in a negative way towards anyone who offered an opinion; it just puts into perspective how far into the stratosphere audio can go in search of the last degree of resolution. One of my other hobbies is wine, and there's a strong similarity in that regard between the two.
 
Don't let the looks of the W4S fool you as it is a top notch preamp that has tremendous flexibility. Though not tubed it does impart a small amount of warmth to my ears. As for the Level 2 Upgrade that involves a completely different set of parts at many times the cost of the original plus the labor to uninstall and reinstall. EJ could have just as easily given it a different name or designation but didn't think it necessary. Most owners will never have the desire to even do it. It also is a more universal match gain wise for whatever amp direction you go in. Just my opinion as a longer term owner of one. Also the black to the eye can look more finished and it will be in a cabinet.
 
A note about the XP10 if it was in consideration, it does have two sets of XLR balanced inputs and even a remote.

I've used it with at least 4 different power amps and have not noticed it imposing any certain sonic character, which should be a good thing. The price used/demo is considerably below your cap of $5k. I know of one source to buy who allows a return.

I can't say how it would compare to many of your other options. I will say I had an audition of a $10k Levinson in my XP10's place with an option to buy at a really good deal, I decided to keep my XP10 without hesitation.
 
If you're talking to Mike about the Directstream DAC might as well explore the PS Audio BHK preamp. Meets your input and remote requirements and with the way the tubes are run even the supplied tubes should last well over five years with normal usage. A good set of "upgraded" NOS tubes will run you about $60 and Mike and others of us can point you to reliable sources. Easy to change from the top. Should sound great with a Ncore 500 based amp. It's not strictly a tube preamp but a hybrid design. Tube input stage and SS output stage.
 
I absolutely love my STP-SE, and knowing EJ and crew, you won't find a company that backs their products better. Five year warranties and hand made in California. EJ even designs and assembles his own circuit boards (pretty amazing setup actually). There is no finer volume control out there. Also, four sets of outputs is very unique (I use them all).

It may very well be the most deserving of the term "Giant Killer" on the market. Joe had mine for a while. Ask him about it :)...

My honest opinion, there are better preamplifiers, but you have to go 3-5 times, or more, in price to find something better. It Is that good!
 
For the sake of closing the loop on this thread, I wanted to report back that I purchased the Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE Stage 2 during the 4th of July sale. It arrived Saturday and is being broken in with my old system. More new stuff to arrive in the coming days/weeks!

Initial impressions are favorable so far, with two surprises: 1. The relay based volume control is surprisingly loud as it clacks between each gain step. Not necessarily objectionable, as it gives feedback that something has changed, but still audible; 2. Seems like I have a LOT more gain on hand all of a sudden, which is surprising for a mostly passive unit. Listening at gain level 13-20 (out of 80) is more than adequate. I'm a little surprised given that all I'm driving it with at the moment is an old Blu Ray player that must be putting out way more voltage than I suspected!

Anyway, thanks to all for the input - it was all valuable in helping me arrive at a decision!
 
Wow!

Congratulations. I am sure you will love it. Please update after you have another week or two playing it.

2FlyingYorkies said:
For the sake of closing the loop on this thread, I wanted to report back that I purchased the Wyred 4 Sound STP-SE Stage 2 during the 4th of July sale. It arrived Saturday and is being broken in with my old system. More new stuff to arrive in the coming days/weeks!

Initial impressions are favorable so far, with two surprises: 1. The relay based volume control is surprisingly loud as it clacks between each gain step. Not necessarily objectionable, as it gives feedback that something has changed, but still audible; 2. Seems like I have a LOT more gain on hand all of a sudden, which is surprising for a mostly passive unit. Listening at gain level 13-20 (out of 80) is more than adequate. I'm a little surprised given that all I'm driving it with at the moment is an old Blu Ray player that must be putting out way more voltage than I suspected!

Anyway, thanks to all for the input - it was all valuable in helping me arrive at a decision!
Click to expand...
 
Congrats on the preamp. The relay noise should subside a bit with break-in but will always be louder if you are running it single ended as it is fully balanced. The BHK preamp which uses a version of the same volume control is the same way. If you are going to be running one of the DS DACs into the STP-SE and then to an amp with balanced inputs you will get the least noise all around if you run it all in balanced mode. There are plenty of quality balanced IC's at "sane" prices. Like Joe looking forward to your opinion once you get some more miles on it.
 
Congratulations! At some point I want to get my STP-SE upgraded to Stage 2.

I found that the unit improved, rather dramatically, over the first 100 hours or so. The first 50 hours the changes were huge. The unit smoothed out nicely becoming warmer and more detailed. The slight harshness and brightness went away after the first 30-50 hours and then it just became magical.

Clicking is normal and does give a nice feedback, although as Jack states, it becomes less as the unit breaks in. There are also a couple point on the volume where a slight pop is heard. This is normal. At 33 and I think 67 (although I never get to that point so I cannot swear by the 67 figure).

The gain on your amplifier makes a huge difference. My First Watt has a low gain, about 16-18 and requires me pumping the volume more. The Audio Research is more inline with the gain on the W4S amplifiers (a little lower), so I do not have to push the volume as much.

If you want more control on the volume you can always add attenuators. I had to do this with the Job amplifier since it has such a high gain stage. Rothwell makes some of the best, in either RCA or XLR depending on if you are running single ended or balanced to your amplifier.
 
Jack said:
Don't let the looks of the W4S fool you as it is a top notch preamp that has tremendous flexibility. Though not tubed it does impart a small amount of warmth to my ears. As for the Level 2 Upgrade that involves a completely different set of parts at many times the cost of the original plus the labor to uninstall and reinstall. EJ could have just as easily given it a different name or designation but didn't think it necessary. Most owners will never have the desire to even do it. It also is a more universal match gain wise for whatever amp direction you go in. Just my opinion as a longer term owner of one. Also the black to the eye can look more finished and it will be in a cabinet.
Click to expand...
Hi Jack,
I would like to know if STP-SE can receive XLR input and output to the amp via RCA. My DAC has both RCA and XLR outputs and I am planing to buy an amp only accepting RCA, but I wonder if receiving RCA or XLR makes any difference for STP-SE in this case?
Thanks!
 
rubato said:
I would like to know if STP-SE can receive XLR input and output to the amp via RCA. My DAC has both RCA and XLR outputs and I am planing to buy an amp only accepting RCA, but I wonder if receiving RCA or XLR makes any difference for STP-SE in this case?
Click to expand...

It does, and this is how I use my STP-SE with Lumin XLR output and Job 225 RCA input. Choice of XLR vs RCA depends on your DAC.
 
If you're open to any other suggestions, based on your budget and requirements the new Audia Flight FLS-1 ticks all your boxes & has an inbuilt headphone amp done right with 12watts @8 ohms. It also has two gain settings. I've seen and auditioned Audia Flight gear. Their build quality, sound and WAF are all beyond reproach. To sum up, I'd describe them as good value.
 
From my understanding, if you use RCA jacks you are using the preamplifier as single ended. To take advantage of fully balanced requires XLR cabling. Please correct me if I am wrong in this belief.

The STP-SE has both RCA (single ended) inputs and outputs. It also has XLR (balanced) inputs and outputs. I personally use them all. I use XLR outputs to my Audio Research amplifier and also use RCA to my First Watt amplifier and Woo headphone amplifier. I also use XLR to RCA adapters (which work just fine) to connect the subwoofers.

On the inputs I use XLR from the DAC and use RCA from the Marantz spinner (for SACD) and the tuner. I prefer XLR whenever possible, but can use either depending on which is supported by the gear I am hooking up. I would not use XLR vs RCA as the determining factor on choosing other equipment for my system, but if either is available I will use the XLR.
 
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