Thinking about a CD player, any opinions of these?

MusicDirector said:
In my opinion, a CD is going to sound like a CD, no amount of gear or money will change that. If the CD is mastered well and recorded with CD in mind it will sound pretty darn good on almost any player in the $300 and up range. If it is not done well, it will sound like a turd and you can't polish a turd. In other words, it will sound the same on a $300 or $400 player as it will a $3000 player.

Just my thoughts, worth about 2 cents on a good day.
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I am going to have to disagree with you here. I have found differences in many players. I often take a CD with various familiar tracks I have burned when I go to my dealer to audition gear. During one visit I commented to one of the salesman I know well that player A was unable to resolve some of the higher frequencies. The cymbals and guitars sounded like hash. A bit later the owner game in a said "I hear you think my A player is broken". I then played him the same track on player A and then on a couple of other players. The other units (one more expensive and the other less expensive) were able to resolve those instruments so that they were separate and distinct.
 
I agree with Jim. I have compared my Oppo105D to my T+A PDP3000HV and its no contest.
 
still-one said:
I am going to have to disagree with you here. I have found differences in many players. I often take a CD with various familiar tracks I have burned when I go to my dealer to audition gear. During one visit I commented to one of the salesman I know well that player A was unable to resolve some of the higher frequencies. The cymbals and guitars sounded like hash. A bit later the owner game in a said "I hear you think my A player is broken". I then played him the same track on player A and then on a couple of other players. The other units (one more expensive and the other less expensive) were able to resolve those instruments so that they were separate and distinct.
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I only post my opinion, there is no wrong or right. What you quoted from me is talking about the recording quality of the CD. I don't know about anyone else, but I can't make a bad recording sound fantastic with any amount of gear or money.
There are lots of difference between players themselves, I think I said that.
Have you also considered the fact of dac implementation being a factor in the differences you heard and that you were using good mastered CDs as opposed to typical ones? With all that factored in I would not be surprised at what you heard at all.:)
Price or label does not automatically mean good implementation just as it doesn't mean bad. Our individual ears are the final judge.
Since you mentioned "I then played him the same track on player A and then on a couple of other players. The other units (one more expensive and the other less expensive) were able to resolve those instruments so that they were separate and distinct". So where is the disagreement Jim? :)
 
Mike said:
I agree with Jim. I have compared my Oppo105D to my T+A PDP3000HV and its no contest.
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Hmm, as far as I know isn't the Oppo a video player over a CD player? (As I understand it they are two different lasers although the video laser reads audio fine, but not as good as a dedicated on CDs which are a different encoding than DVD or Blue Ray or SACD. That said, there are some units with both lasers built in, could be the case with the Oppo as I am not totally familiar with the unit).
I could be wrong, it's been a few years since I dug into this.

Eric
 
MusicDirector said:
I only post my opinion, there is no wrong or right. What you quoted from me is talking about the recording quality of the CD. I don't know about anyone else, but I can't make a bad recording sound fantastic with any amount of gear or money.
There are lots of difference between players themselves, I think I said that.
Have you also considered the fact of dac implementation being a factor in the differences you heard and that you were using good mastered CDs as opposed to typical ones? With all that factored in I would not be surprised at what you heard at all.:)
Price or label does not automatically mean good implementation just as it doesn't mean bad. Our individual ears are the final judge.
Since you mentioned "I then played him the same track on player A and then on a couple of other players. The other units (one more expensive and the other less expensive) were able to resolve those instruments so that they were separate and distinct". So where is the disagreement Jim? :)
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I re-read your initial post and what I quoted I now see you were generally speaking recording quality. That said, and I an not trying to parse words but your final comment that "you can't polish a turd. In other words, it will sound the same on a $300 or $400 player as it will a $3000 player." Maybe the recording isn't a turd, maybe player A just makes it sound like one due to design or engineering choices. Heck, it could sound better on the $300 or $400 player.

Also, you are correct. If he is only going to use it to sample albums before purchasing them on vinyl or to play the occasional disc he cannot locate on vinyl, then he should do not allocate a significant portion of his audio funds on a player.
 
still-one said:
I re-read your initial post and what I quoted I now see you were generally speaking recording quality. That said, and I an not trying to parse words but your final comment that "you can't polish a turd. In other words, it will sound the same on a $300 or $400 player as it will a $3000 player." Maybe the recording isn't a turd, maybe player A just makes it sound like one due to design or engineering choices. Heck, it could sound better on the $300 or $400 player.

Also, you are correct. If he is only going to use it to sample albums before purchasing them on vinyl or to play the occasional disc he cannot locate on vinyl, then he should do not allocate a significant portion of his audio funds on a player.
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It's certainly possible in both directions, absolutely. I think we just mentioned that too. Like I said if the recording is bad it will sound just as bad on any player. Heck, the more revealing the system the worse a bad recording sounds.
I agree, if the recording is good (a non-turd):), then it may well sound different on different players due to the engineering indeed! Of course, a bad recording may sound different as well across different players, but it would be harder to tell and will never be turned into a good recording, I think that is the point I was making in a rather non-articulate way.
I've heard differences with good well recorded CDs just in the few hundred dollar range myself among different players. If I expanded that range I'd probably hear more differences with some performing the same way across the spectrum, to deny any of that would be foolishness on my part.

Yes, I was concerned about the OP's use. I was thinking sampling and a very small collection of CDs not on vinyl. Now if we are talking about a significant library of CDs for listening (not available on vinyl or vinyl rips or what have you), say a few hundred or more, that changes things. Then I'd say if you have the funds, then go for the gusto for sure.

I have around 1000 Cds myself (around 350 that will never be on vinyl, a number of needle drops and a few that to me, just sound better on CD than their vinyl cousins for reasons I am not sure of myself, it just is). However, I'm pretty happy with my Marantz 5004 as my system is pretty revealing in it's current configuration (someday I will be making improvements in the amp department maybe to make it even more revealing). If I did not have the Marantz, I would maybe look for something different, it depends on a number of factors, starting with funds. Don't know, the Marantz is pretty well built in my opinion although that don't mean a few players out there won't beat the tar out of it.:)


~Eric
 
I can say from my experience that CD Players can sound different and that was proven to me when I first replaced a cheap Sony with a Phillips. My Rotel then beat that. The rotel also beats both my OPPO 93s.

As far as what Eric said about any amount of money making bad recordings sound better goes, I respectfully have to disagree with that also since my new tubes have allowed me to enjoy many crappy recordings that I would not spin anymore.

I know that people with money will spend it and that is what keeps HE MFGs in business, but all in all the units are of higher quality than mass market gear. Do you really get 20 times better sound from a $20k player over a $1k player, IMO absolutely not, but it should by all rights sound better in some fashion.
 
Shadowfax said:
I can say from my experience that CD Players can sound different and that was proven to me when I first replaced a cheap Sony with a Phillips. My Rotel then beat that. The rotel also beats both my OPPO 93s.

As far as what Eric said about any amount of money making bad recordings sound better goes, I respectfully have to disagree with that also since my new tubes have allowed me to enjoy many crappy recordings that I would not spin anymore.

I know that people with money will spend it and that is what keeps HE MFGs in business, but all in all the units are of higher quality than mass market gear. Do you really get 20 times better sound from a $20k player over a $1k player, IMO absolutely not, but it should by all rights sound better in some fashion.
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To each their own as always. Agree or disagree doesn't really matter. I'm more concerned with understanding.
I'm not trying to sound harsh or anything Brian as you know brother. I would just like some clarification perhaps. Maybe I'm overlooking something, I don't know.

I do definitely agree that CD players can sound different as it depends on the design and dac implementation. For example: my Marantz CD player sounds entirely different from the Onkyo I had. (Open looking in a bit more depth at them I saw two entirely different designs, but the same brand of dac is used). However, there is also the other gear to consider such as the amp and speakers that factor in. I've had different speakers make it seem like the same CD player or amp sound different. It's really all one complex ever-changing chain. However, as I understand it and experience it thus far, all that has nothing to do with the recording being good or not.

Perhaps I'm not understanding something or do I? For example: Take Rush's album Vapor Trails for instance on CD. That thing was very badly done in the mastering. The levels were extreme in every bad way conceivable amongst other sonic transgressions. I played it on two different CD players and two different systems, two different price points as well as in the car, so that's three systems. One system is very revealing, system two is my vintage system with a vintage CD player, the car system is the worst of the lot. It sounded the same throughout. (Yes, Rush made good and released a remastered version and all is right with the world, but I'm talking about the first release obviously).
It's physics as far as I'm concerned. If you use a shorted wire on a cheap piece of gear and it goes out on you, then use the same wire on a higher priced piece of gear or just a different piece does that fix it?

I agree higher cost should carry with it higher performance, absolutely.
However, my whole premise was being sensitive to what the OP's intended use was and diminishing returns, but leaving the choice completely open. I mean do you buy a $300 tripod for a $60 camera or put $2000 a piece wheels on a yugo? Of course, one can if one wants, but would it not be more prudent to weight use vs cost or gains vs cost. Some things are absolutely worth everything one can do to move up the ladder, but in my opinion it also depends on intended use and needs.

Am I missing everything or something?
 
Eric,

It's not just the DAC, the Transport is also important. There are only a handful of MFGs, and then there are several grades of transport. Many mass market items have same or similar transports, while HE gear uses the highest grade transports available hopefully :)

DACs sound different
Transports sound different
Power Supplies must have something to do with it or the Marantz 67SE that I forgot about would not have had one 2x bigger than my previous ones.
Construction of the whole unit contributes something and then the rest of the individual parts on the boards can all be different grades and specs. There is no simple answer why one sounds better than the other sometimes or why a cheaper one can sound same or similar to a more expensive unit.

Not as big a deal as Speakers and Pre Amp, but there is also Synergy with other components as well as cabling.
 
Shadowfax said:
Eric,

It's not just the DAC, the Transport is also important. There are only a handful of MFGs, and then there are several grades of transport. Many mass market items have same or similar transports, while HE gear uses the highest grade transports available hopefully :)

DACs sound different
Transports sound different
Power Supplies must have something to do with it or the Marantz 67SE that I forgot about would not have had one 2x bigger than my previous ones.
Construction of the whole unit contributes something and then the rest of the individual parts on the boards can all be different grades and specs. There is no simple answer why one sounds better than the other sometimes or why a cheaper one can sound same or similar to a more expensive unit.

Not as big a deal as Speakers and Pre Amp, but there is also Synergy with other components as well as cabling.
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Totally agree about the drive. I thought I mentioned that in my earlier post? Perhaps I forgot. Yes, flimsy trays and sketchy drives won't do at all.
I do not e the build on my $300 Marantz CD player is superior to the other players I've had, but then most of those were $100 players. However, it is interesting how much difference there can be just between 100 and 300 and more on up the line.
Dac implementation does sound different for sure. I'm guessing transports sound different too especially talking about. stability, jitter and all that. My Onkyo had a lousy transport (no surprise there). The transport in my Marantz is not HE of course, but it is a bit better than the others before it. I wonder what they used in my NEC player which is at least 15 years old and still going strong. (That in itself is astonishing. I've never had a CD player go longer than 3 or 4 years..of course I'm not talking HE either).
Construction can differ greatly between ranges, yes.
I don't see any disagreement with any of that stuff Brian.
Agian though, none of that has anything to do with the recording. That is to say, it doesn't change the recording. That's what I was mentioning trying for scope.
 
MusicDirector said:
Hmm, as far as I know isn't the Oppo a video player over a CD player? (As I understand it they are two different lasers although the video laser reads audio fine, but not as good as a dedicated on CDs which are a different encoding than DVD or Blue Ray or SACD. That said, there are some units with both lasers built in, could be the case with the Oppo as I am not totally familiar with the unit).
I could be wrong, it's been a few years since I dug into this.

Eric
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As a FYI on the OPPO105 : It has two laser heads. An IR head for reading CD and DVD media, and a blue laser head for reading Blu-rays. ( PS, that's per OPPO )
 
CPP said:
You know I like the unit, but I liked my old Marantz 8004 better, my it rest in peace(transport died) as a CD player but the cost spent on a good video section of the OPPO105 just sets there unused when your listening to music in a dedicated 2 channel room.
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Yes, I would not get an Oppo for a 2-channel system. However, if said system (2 channel, 5, 9......) is part of an overall entertainment situation, I'd spring for an Oppo in a heartbeat.
 
I have to agree on Marantz CD players. They have a unique sound, more analog than most players and their sub $1K players are tremendous good buys with excellent sound. I had an SA-8001 and tried out an 8003 (both were excellent), I eventually got a Cambridge Audio 840c which has to be the most over rated CDP in the history of audio. I ended up with a Van Alstine DAC which sounded better than the Marantz and 840c. I also helped a friend set up a budget system with a 5004 and that player just sounds so good and performs way above its price point.
 
Hi, I didn't want to start a new thread, I thought I might just jump on this one to get some opinions. I'm not sure in which way to move next. I have Sonus Faber Toy Tower speakers, British Magnum integrated amp, Vincent CD-S3 player. I just bought Toy Towers, I'm happy with them, so they will be with me in a years to come. I'm going to change Magnum for Swiss JOB as soon as possible. And I want to change a CD player, but I don't know which one to get. I have some thoughts, but I'm not sure about them. Money is a major issue for me, so I can't think about the gear most of you guys here have. But also I don't think I have a need for such gear because most of the music I listen to is not top notch production (I listen to a lot of 70's and 80's disco, metal, pop and rock).
"Normal" set-up would be this soon-to-be-released JOB integrated + some new CD player (*new* = not Vincent any more; it can be second-hand or brand new device). But I also have this thought of an "alternative" way to build my audio system: JOB 225 power amp + CD player with built-in preamp. What you think about that? From what I've read, Nagra CDC or Wadia 581 SE are among the best such players in a world -- but I can only dream of them, so it'll have to be something much cheaper, if I'm gonna go in that direction at all.
But also if I go for a more traditional set-up of JOB integrated + player, I don't really know just which player. I had some cheap players in a past (Sony, Onkyo, Cambridge Audio); then I had Naim CD5i, and now I have Vincent, one of their top-components ever. I don't think this Vincent is anything special, its biggest plus is that it's built very well.
My first dillema here is this...
I also own Chinese VALAB DAC-X9
http://forum.academ.org/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=1706193
http://forum.academ.org/index.php?act=attach&type=post&id=1706196
Valab DAC-X: Dual WM8741 24bit 192k DAC, Balanced XLR Output - Digital, DACs & Computer Audio - StereoNET
...so, I was thinking should I maybe look for just a good transport and make use of that DAC? I haven't really tested it properly yet, but from what I saw on the web people are really pleased with DAC-X9.
IF I'm going to use this DAC and find myself a device which would work primary (or exclusively) as transport - which one to get? At this point, another question emerged - I don't know anything about this, I thought some of you might know - how about professional CD players, like TASCAM ( Product: CD-6010 | TASCAM or Product: CD-200 | TASCAM ) for example? Are such devices suitable at all for audiophile set-up and why? I'm just curious cause I find them somewhat intriguing. Could they at least be good as transports?
If I should look for strictly audiophile player... hm, from my experience, all cheaper players (below $1000) which I heard sound more or less the same. I heard that only top-quality high-end player can bring a real difference in sound. But I could afford one like that only if it's second-hand. Since Nagra and Wadia are out of the question, where to look? I always fancied the most SimAudio (Equinox, Nova) and Mimetism 20.1, but that's probably impossible to find in mint condition and for good price.
Sorry for the lengthy post... any thoughts are most welcome! :popcorn:
 
First off, what is your budget so we can make recommendations? I have heard quite a bit of difference between sub $1K CDP's. I had a Marantz SA-8001, SA-8003, Cambridge Audio 840c and 740c, Music Hall 25.2. The Marantz units sounded quite different than the 2 Cambridge Units (warmer, less musical but more analog) and the Music Hall sounded completely different than the Marantz and CA's. I would recommend buying a cheaper CD player and use it as a transport and then go with a nice DAC.
 
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