The three second rule

I think this video is interesting for everybody who is really interested in this thread and with that the psychological effects of being an audiophile. Probably some or most of you have seen it but nevertheless interesting for those who haven't.

 
I think this video is interesting for everybody who is really interested in this thread and with that the psychological effects of being an audiophile. Probably some or most of you have seen it but nevertheless interesting for those who haven't.




Perhaps you can save us from wasting 60 minutes of our lives and tell us exactly what we supposed to learn from them? Those guys are jokes not to mention one has been debunked by Atkinson on numerous occasions and thinks 16/44 is all we need. Not to mention he can't listen to any of his CDs since all except two of his CDs sound unlistenable as he's improved his system. Yep, that's who I want to take advice from.

Face it. None of them would know high-end audio if it ran over them and when pressed on what high-end gear they've heard, you get a pregnant pause or obfuscation.
 
What are you doing posting videos of the high-end anti-Christ on a high-end forum?!
 
I follow the 3 second qualifying rule. If it's muffled, harsh, distorted or 2 dimensional, it doesn't qualify for extended listening time. But as an invited guest do you offer the host some truth when they decide to crank up those poorly positioned plastic Sony speakers?
 
I follow the 3 second qualifying rule. If it's muffled, harsh, distorted or 2 dimensional, it doesn't qualify for extended listening time. But as an invited guest do you offer the host some truth when they decide to crank up those poorly positioned plastic Sony speakers?

Fifteen years ago in a different life, I lived in the Bronx. We had a couple of audiophiles in the building and one of my downstairs neighbors had what was a SOTA system just fifteen or so years earlier consisting of a ARC D76 amp, ARC SP3A Van Alastine modded preamplifier, a Linn table with a vdh modded something cartridge, and Magnepan Tympani III speakers. In it's day, the system cost a fortune in its day (12K) when he purchased it from Lyric Hi-Fi.

Thing was this guy had never changed the tubes (someone told him new tubes were awful and not to change his tubes) and he didn't believe in cables. So much so he was using cheap zip cord cable and the ends of the cables (he was using bare wire as a connector) were literally green and rotting. Guess what? That system was so harsh and muffled as to be unlistenable. But there was no telling this guy.

So moral of story is can't always jump to conclusions. :)
 
Myles...I've heard some great gear present like a chalk board. Even McIntosh. It's often a delicate matter because it amounts to either or a combination of ignorance, pride, peer or marketing conditioning. Then there are those that are simply awestruck by having the equipment rather than being focussed on the performance characteristics in the chosen operating environment. Eg. The fully glassed & porcelain tiled contemporary beach front room.

People have asked me to set systems up for them. I generally refuse because they did not budget appropriately for a complete "system" implementation. For example, not wanting to factor adequate ratios for cables/terminations & basic room treatment.
 
Perhaps you can save us from wasting 60 minutes of our lives and tell us exactly what we supposed to learn from them?
What are you doing posting videos of the high-end anti-Christ on a high-end forum?!
What_The_Heck.jpg

Where did I deserve this aggression?
I thought this thread was about the fact that we so called audiophiles (and yes, I am one of us) sometimes decieve our ears by mixing-up theories and what we really hear. The poster resumed this in his three second rule. And personally I think he has a point.
I am honest and humble enough to admit that I have been in situations where I was trying to convince myself of a sound quality of a component that was not deserving it. Most of the times I do know how good it is after a very short listening time.
I think most of us know that by pushing the boundaries like we do we sometimes reach the grey zones of reality.

The guys in the video have a few nice examples of how this works sometimes. And I don't claim that they are gurus or audio experts in any way. If you don't like it don't watch it and I don't think I need to screen your personal preferences before posting something relevant to the topic.
 
Guess I'm definitely in the minority here and think it's a horrible idea for reasons almost too numerous to list. It definitely goes against what I've observed in 35+ years of listening not too mention know about biology, neurobiology, anatomy, etc.. It seems to me this method is a surefire way to disaster and picking some bad gear and miss good gear this way very easily. One might as well toss a coin.

As for Mark's example, it's really an anecdotal example and there's so many things that could be amiss other than the equipment. This component is exciting a room issue you didn't know existed. There's some sort of interaction going on between the components that needs to be sorted out. The equipment has to be properly warmed up. To wit, every tube amplifier I've ever listened to needs a minimum of 30-60 mins to sounds its best and if it uses interstage coupling transformers like the VAC Rennaissance or Audio Note amplifier do/did, it could take 3-4 hours to sound their best. And forget it for digital and solid-state gear. Unless their on for a day, listening is pointless (as are electrostatic speakers for that matter).

Then let's look at the underlying and accompanying biology, physiology and neurobiology.

1. Do you think your hearing is the same every day?

2. Do you think your system sounds the same every day?

3. Let's consider the process of adaptation? Our bodies adapt/get used to various stressors with time that actually occurs via genes turning on and off. Common stressors? Heat, cold, alcohol, noise, music, etc. Usually as shown by Selye, adaption takes a minimum of two weeks and can continue for up to 7 weeks or so. So if I put you in the Arctic, you'll shiver for a couple of weeks but eventually you'll adapt and get used to the temperatures. Same goes for hear and that process is mediated via heat shock proteins.

4. What about the various receptor in our bodies? One is sadly mistaken if you think that we experience music only through our hearing. Our body is covered with receptors in the skin, etc. almost too numerous to list that sense pressure, pain, etc. They clearly play a role in our response to music. Remember not everything that goes on in our brain is consciously processed.

5. Then there's the issue of how the brain perceives music. I strongly urge everyone if you haven't yet, pick up a copy of the New York Times best seller This is Your Brain on Music, vol. 1 and 2. A very educational look at why music is so important to us and how and why our brain responds the way written by someone who is among other things, a musician, producer and neuroscientist. You should also check your preconceptions at the door since his research overturns many myths and dogma that dog the field. (don't forget how we react to music can also be traced to our exposure at young ages.)

But it's even more important to understand how our brain works and its dual nature. Basically we can break our brain down into the primitive/limbic system that evolutionary we've had lots of experience with for millions of years. (one --of many--books that goes into the science and psychology of our brain is another Times bestseller The Happiness Hypothesis written by Jonathan Haider.) Then we have the more recent on the evolutionary scale frontal cortex part of the brain that we're starting to figure out how to use. What happens is that our "early" response is determined by the primitive brain eg. fight or flight responses. But over time, our frontal cortex become more involved in the processing (I could spend quite a bit of time talking about brain processing and how depending on short term memory is about the most unreliable thing because if its limited "disc" space and parallel processing that leads to lots of bottlenecks and slowing down of processing.

(Here is also a good list of book on our brain and musical processing, etc. 7 Essential Books on Music, Emotion, and the Brain | Brain Pickings

So in the end, short term decisions in my experience not only are bad but are totally opposite of what I've observed. In fact, in general I've found that equipment that has sounded good initially quite often wears thin with extended listening (eg. this is the primitive brain talking to us and looking for spatial cues, exaggerated high frequencies and things related to flight or fight.). Conversely, I find that gear that often sounds bad or not much different will sound better with extended listening (even after breaking in).

As they say YMMV....


Very well said. I agree. 3 seconds to judge is a bad idea.
 
Hi Myles, I am not saying I agree or disagree with David's story. I just thought it would be a fun post. I do however agree that most of the break in we hear is less from the gear and more the listener adapting to the new sound. Anyways thanks for your detailed reply, very good points you have raised.

Agree. Other than speakers I am a break in skeptic. And even with speakers I'm skeptical that it takes hundreds of hours.
 
What_The_Heck.jpg

Where did I deserve this aggression?
I thought this thread was about the fact that we so called audiophiles (and yes, I am one of us) sometimes decieve our ears by mixing-up theories and what we really hear. The poster resumed this in his three second rule. And personally I think he has a point.
I am honest and humble enough to admit that I have been in situations where I was trying to convince myself of a sound quality of a component that was not deserving it. Most of the times I do know how good it is after a very short listening time.
I think most of us know that by pushing the boundaries like we do we sometimes reach the grey zones of reality.

The guys in the video have a few nice examples of how this works sometimes. And I don't claim that they are gurus or audio experts in any way. If you don't like it don't watch it and I don't think I need to screen your personal preferences before posting something relevant to the topic.

Sorry then you need to understand more about this trios history and agendas. That video has been around for years and so debunked it's like kicking a dead horse again. Surely you must have known that posting that video on a high-end forum would raise the hair on the back of people's necks?

How many of that trio do you think have a science or engineering degree? Which one is a self proclaimed expert? What actually are their qualifications? And do you realize that trio actually endorses and promotes snap judgements while at the same time totally ignoring what we know about biology, neurobiology, physiology and testing effects? Even engineering in one of their cases. That they believe science and testing is a one size fits all model? YMMV...

Actually I thought the thread is whether snap judgements are reliable or not not if we're deceiving ourselves. There's a difference.
 
Fellas...I could, and literally have thought about, write a book on this subject. Not to say I'm an expert, or have the answers...if there are any; just that I find the subject fascinating, and spend a lot of time thinking about it...and how it relates to me and the hobby.

But this is an unanswerable question...much like "chicken or egg". For me...all that really matters, is did I get "better". I think you can tell that pretty quickly (and please guys...I don't think "3 seconds" is meant to be taken at face value; so can we stop with the "well, I can't tell in 3 second; but I can tell in 20 seconds"...lol. I think the idea is quickly, or not so quickly). But...what is "better", and what is just "different"; and what is it we're really looking for anyway?

That's why I do both. I listen to the new stuff...both critically and casually; really live with it and drink it in for a while. Then...and I think this is the most important step; I go back to my old kit. I think you can become infatuated with new gear; no one wants to have made a "mistake". Like we've discussed already...is it "better", or simply "different". I don't know about the rest of you...but I have a pretty short, aural memory. After a few weeks of listening to something new...it's hard to even really remember, what the "old" piece sounded like.

So...it's important to go back; compare, with a new-found understanding of the auditioned piece. However...we can convince, and justify; and drive ourselves nuts...with the pros and cons, and again...which is really what I'm going for (this one has better bass and imaging...but this one is sweet in the mids and has a huge sound-stage). Which brings up yet another point: it is few and far between...where I am A/B-ing two pieces of kit...and one of them just beats the daylights out of the other, on all fronts.

And then, there are a myriad of parallel factors: like...well these speakers sound better now; but I have a feeling those would sound better, with a different amp and some room treatments...lol. Do you want low maintenance, or to be tweaking? Like I said...I could go on and on, and write a book.

So in the end...for me; I do both. I analyze, and take into account all the different factors...my physiology, psychology; but just as paralysis by analysis starts to set it...I will sometimes pick one track, listen to it on each...and just go with my gut. That...sounds...BETTER!

Oh also...whether we're auditioning at the local B & M, or home-auditioning with used kit; completely changes this process too. So...in the end; all that really matters, is that you convinced yourself...in a way that allows you to sit, listen, and enjoy...and not constantly be questioning, whether you made the right choice. For me...that's an important part of the system building: can I sit and listen, and be satisfied...I have the best possible gear, for me; given my current budget.

Of course...I love gear, lol; so I want to try just about anything that seems like it would be good. But...I am happy to say, I've tried just about all of it I care to...and/or can afford; so I am honing-in on a system, that I can just sit, and live with...and love.
 
It going to take me longer than 3 seconds. First you have to get the sales persons fingers off the controls, that takes 60 seconds

Audio like anything else requires patience and 3 seconds/ 5 minutes is not giving the equipment or the music a chance after all it took Mozart longer than 3 seconds to write a concerto. You made the effort to get up that day and drive down to a store, at least take the time to audition the equipment.
 
If a new piece of kit is not to my liking, I can usually tell in the first hour, but I will then try changing the other gear and with speakers I will also play with position. This can sometimes turn a loser into winner. But in general detecting a piece is not staying is the easy part. The far more difficult part is the other end of the spectrum. If I love a piece in the first hour that by no means guarantees I will love it after living with it for a few months. For me, it definitely takes a few weeks at a minimum before I'm confident something is a real keeper. Way too many ways for a new piece to temporarily wow me but ultimately dissatisfy.
 
I guess when a component comes in and doesn't sound right after breaking in, I look for something going on in the system. (Yes, and even sometimes stuff gets damaged in shipping too.) Equipment nowadays is far better than it's ever been and most designers won't send something that's awful. (Or use the reviewer or consumer as a Beta tester.) After all, designers hear each other's work and music and nowadays it's rare to get a clunker.

But every so often something comes through that just can't get to work in my system. Often we'll pass it onto another reviewer to see if they can get better results. That happened many years ago back with an amp (or Two) that were solely designed using Soundlabs speakers. Couldn't get these amps to sound right on anything else including Magnepans, Avalons or ProAcs.

Taste is another story.
 
Sorry then you need to understand more about this trios history and agendas.
No I don't want to study the history of these people. I am not utterly impressed by individuals with the name Poppy Crum anyway, unless it's an erotic movie of course.. However I do think that the things they describe sometimes apply in situations we are in.

Sorry then you need to understand more about this trios history and agendas.
Actually I thought the thread is whether snap judgements are reliable or not not if we're deceiving ourselves. There's a difference.
I do understand there is a difference but I also see the relation between snap judgements or the lack thereof and the psychological deception effects described in the video. I see no reason not to combine the two related things.

But your point is taken. The persons in the video don't know a clue about good sound and are by no means audiophiles. And I am one. I will do a reconstruction in my house in three weeks to install new power circuits. A clean phase for audio only, separated from the phase used for lights and other home appliances and separate circuits for each amp with dedicated AHP audiophile fuse groups.
 
Agree. Other than speakers I am a break in skeptic. And even with speakers I'm skeptical that it takes hundreds of hours.

Even with speakers, how many cycles does it take? ONE MILLION, TEN MILLION???

At 20 Hz, even a woofer will have endured one million cycles after only 13 hours and 53 minutes. Run it at a good volume and you're done.
 
No I don't want to study the history of these people. I am not utterly impressed by individuals with the name Poppy Crum anyway, unless it's an erotic movie of course.. However I do think that the things they describe sometimes apply in situations we are in.

I do understand there is a difference but I also see the relation between snap judgements or the lack thereof and the psychological deception effects described in the video. I see no reason not to combine the two related things.

But your point is taken. The persons in the video don't know a clue about good sound and are by no means audiophiles. And I am one. I will do a reconstruction in my house in three weeks to install new power circuits. A clean phase for audio only, separated from the phase used for lights and other home appliances and separate circuits for each amp with dedicated AHP audiophile fuse groups.

Just understand posting that video on an audiophile website is like waving a red cape in front of a bull! :) And I've been called a pit bull.

Hope you keep us updated on the your power work. An area not to be neglected!
 
Even with speakers, how many cycles does it take? ONE MILLION, TEN MILLION???

At 20 Hz, even a woofer will have endured one million cycles after only 13 hours and 53 minutes. Run it at a good volume and you're done.

It's not just the speaker. According to designers I've spoken to it's the inductors (and capacitors) that take time to break in.
 
I would really think that after an hour of good moderately hard playing, the electrical components--coils, capacitors and inductors--would be settled in. Even so, as per the woofer example, after less than 14 hours, all the musical frequencies would have caused well over a million charge/discharge cycles/magnetic field inversions in the electronic components.

Could it really take ONE HUNDRED MILLION or a BILLION cycles to break in? That's the part I have difficulty with. A speaker at room temperature isn't something we think of as having a warm-up period like a tube pre-amp or power amp.
 
I would really think that after an hour of good moderately hard playing, the electrical components--coils, capacitors and inductors--would be settled in. Even so, as per the woofer example, after less than 14 hours, all the musical frequencies would have caused well over a million charge/discharge cycles/magnetic field inversions in the electronic components.

Could it really take ONE HUNDRED MILLION or a BILLION cycles to break in? That's the part I have difficulty with. A speaker at room temperature isn't something we think of as having a warm-up period like a tube pre-amp or power amp.

Are we talking warm up or break-in? For some reason the two terms have suddenly become interchangeable.

I know don't believe in breaking and I do so it's basically like talking politics. But as discussed part of what is happening is electrical and some is physiological adaptation.
 
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