The three second rule

I guess I use a variation of the three second rule, mine is the "I leave when anything sounds amiss to my ears" . If I'm still there after an hour and a half and escaped critical listening mode then I may have a potential winner. Usually a good sign is when the dealer is trying to trow me out of the listening room after a very long session :) .I usually bring non audiophile music of different genres which I enjoy. To me music is just an extension of my being and a place where I can escape everyday stresses so the equipment must be able to bring me there, no more no less.

Best example I have are the Magico's I tried a year ago, they were 15 minutes of bliss but I then started fatiguing. To be certain it was not something else causing me to have that reaction the first time I took the opportunity to try them at another dealer and the same thing happened. Please understand I am not saying they are not good speakers, they were just not made for me.

I guess we all have different methods of evaluation, as long as it works for you!

And one thing for sure I'm not interested in the bling factor, you would understand if you saw my rack.
 
I'm not sure about three seconds, but within the first five minutes i can tell if something isn't right.
One thing i do know, if my wife says it's worse (or better) it usually is.
 
One thing i do know, if my wife says it's worse (or better) it usually is.

I love that about my wife also. She really isn't into it like I am and thinks I spend too much time over it. But she can walk into the room without a clue and say "Something is different" and pretty much describe what I was hoping or thinking myself.
 
I couldn't stand it:

This was something David, a good friend of mine has spoken about for years. He finally put pen in hand and wrote about it:

Some time ago I realized something that quickly became my most valuable tool for the aural evaluation of high end audio equipment. I thought I would share it with you today. I call it my “ Three Second Rule".
Many years ago, I brought home a new set of elaborate mono block amplifiers with matching preamplifier from a very well respected high end manufacturer. These pieces were very expensive and beautifully made. One of the most expensive combinations of the day and certainly very expensive for me!
I was so excited! My listening room was large and properly treated. The setup of all the equipment went perfectly! I had Magnepan Tympani IV loudspeakers and a Roksan Xerxes turntable and the new equipment … well that will remain nameless for the purpose of this story! Setting up the amplifiers took much physical effort due to their weight as you can imagine. I let everything warm up … as we audiophiles do … making sure everything settled in and achieved thermal equilibrium. For that hour I waited what seemed like the longest hour of my life! Time was now upon me … to lower the stylus into that music rich groove and bask in this new sound experience - which had to be great, right, as all the reviewers adored this equipment. I listened for a few songs not knowing how I really felt … then got up to change the record. During the silence my wife called to me and said: “What did you do to your stereo system, something has changed … and it sounds awful”?
I was dumbfounded. How could this be? This system is all the rage … and lets not forget all the reviewers loved these. I can’t believe this, she must be wrong! Now Marilyn has incredible hearing and has spent thousands of hours with me enjoying all of my systems so the possibility of her being wrong is very remote. So what was happening for her to think this? It needs more time to break-in I surmised - so I will leave it for another four hours, that should do it! Then Marilyn will hear the potential of this system I am certain!
Four hours later I invited Marilyn to the listening room with me to witness the transformation from the system she thought was awful to the beautiful music making system it has to be. She was upstairs last time so this will make a big difference I thought! The stylus hits the groove and within maybe one or two grooves she says: “This just isn’t working David” … she leaves the room! What the heck (I said to myself)!
Well, with Marilyn now gone, I sat alone and listened to two, maybe three, more songs. I then realized what was happening. Marilyn was absolutely right! Much to my chagrin, this very expensive improvement was not an improvement at all! What is wrong with me?
I know nothing was wrong with my hearing - it was my conscious brain miss-firing! Truth be told, I wanted to adore these new products so much that I was listening past the disappointments. I wasn’t really listening properly at all! Deep down I knew what I was hearing and it was not good at all - but I just needed to like it so much! After all, I had just spent a small fortune buying this highly rated system and it had to be great right? Wrong!!
Hence my audio epiphany which I call: “My Three Second Rule”. The first three seconds of listening to any system is all one needs to judge how good the system is! Longer than this and the brain starts to fill in the blanks to make up for short comings. Statements such as: “I really like the woody cello sound … listen to that detail … or the imaging is spectacular”! All elements that are probably true but brought to prominence as a result of deficiencies elsewhere in the presentation so you go looking for the goodness. The longer you listen, the greater your conscious mind attempts to rationalize or adapt to the deficiencies. Perfection is perfection nonetheless! Using your knowledge bank of learned sounds, my thesis dictates absolute truth is known in not more than three seconds. Beyond that your brain is just trying to justify your purchasing prowess.
The ‘Three Second Rule’ is worth its weight in gold and I highly recommend it. It may take some time and initially feel somewhat cavalier but after a few attempts you will learn to trust your “gut feel”! I have been purchasing serious high end audio equipment for more than 15 years before I finally learned the hard way. As I reflect back, I realize I could have saved so much money over all those years and avoided all those audio detours - not to say all the great listening I sacrificed as a result! All I need now is three seconds and I know whether this is a musical system or not! I don’t even bother to rationalize why … if it doesn’t feel right, it probably isn’t!
My best advice is: “The clock may be still ticking for some, but old dogs can learn new tricks … it just took me 15 years … but that was 25 years ago and a lot of great equipment and beautiful music along the way”!



 
Guess I'm definitely in the minority here and think it's a horrible idea for reasons almost too numerous to list. It definitely goes against what I've observed in 35+ years of listening not too mention know about biology, neurobiology, anatomy, etc.. It seems to me this method is a surefire way to disaster and picking some bad gear and miss good gear this way very easily. One might as well toss a coin.

As for Mark's example, it's really an anecdotal example and there's so many things that could be amiss other than the equipment. This component is exciting a room issue you didn't know existed. There's some sort of interaction going on between the components that needs to be sorted out. The equipment has to be properly warmed up. To wit, every tube amplifier I've ever listened to needs a minimum of 30-60 mins to sounds its best and if it uses interstage coupling transformers like the VAC Rennaissance or Audio Note amplifier do/did, it could take 3-4 hours to sound their best. And forget it for digital and solid-state gear. Unless their on for a day, listening is pointless (as are electrostatic speakers for that matter).

Then let's look at the underlying and accompanying biology, physiology and neurobiology.

1. Do you think your hearing is the same every day?

2. Do you think your system sounds the same every day?

3. Let's consider the process of adaptation? Our bodies adapt/get used to various stressors with time that actually occurs via genes turning on and off. Common stressors? Heat, cold, alcohol, noise, music, etc. Usually as shown by Selye, adaption takes a minimum of two weeks and can continue for up to 7 weeks or so. So if I put you in the Arctic, you'll shiver for a couple of weeks but eventually you'll adapt and get used to the temperatures. Same goes for hear and that process is mediated via heat shock proteins.

4. What about the various receptor in our bodies? One is sadly mistaken if you think that we experience music only through our hearing. Our body is covered with receptors in the skin, etc. almost too numerous to list that sense pressure, pain, etc. They clearly play a role in our response to music. Remember not everything that goes on in our brain is consciously processed.

5. Then there's the issue of how the brain perceives music. I strongly urge everyone if you haven't yet, pick up a copy of the New York Times best seller This is Your Brain on Music, vol. 1 and 2. A very educational look at why music is so important to us and how and why our brain responds the way written by someone who is among other things, a musician, producer and neuroscientist. You should also check your preconceptions at the door since his research overturns many myths and dogma that dog the field. (don't forget how we react to music can also be traced to our exposure at young ages.)

But it's even more important to understand how our brain works and its dual nature. Basically we can break our brain down into the primitive/limbic system that evolutionary we've had lots of experience with for millions of years. (one --of many--books that goes into the science and psychology of our brain is another Times bestseller The Happiness Hypothesis written by Jonathan Haider.) Then we have the more recent on the evolutionary scale frontal cortex part of the brain that we're starting to figure out how to use. What happens is that our "early" response is determined by the primitive brain eg. fight or flight responses. But over time, our frontal cortex become more involved in the processing (I could spend quite a bit of time talking about brain processing and how depending on short term memory is about the most unreliable thing because if its limited "disc" space and parallel processing that leads to lots of bottlenecks and slowing down of processing.

(Here is also a good list of book on our brain and musical processing, etc. http://www.brainpickings.org/2011/03/21/must-read-books-music-emotion-brain/

So in the end, short term decisions in my experience not only are bad but are totally opposite of what I've observed. In fact, in general I've found that equipment that has sounded good initially quite often wears thin with extended listening (eg. this is the primitive brain talking to us and looking for spatial cues, exaggerated high frequencies and things related to flight or fight.). Conversely, I find that gear that often sounds bad or not much different will sound better with extended listening (even after breaking in).

As they say YMMV....
 
Hi Myles, I am not saying I agree or disagree with David's story. I just thought it would be a fun post. I do however agree that most of the break in we hear is less from the gear and more the listener adapting to the new sound. Anyways thanks for your detailed reply, very good points you have raised.
 
Hi Myles, I am not saying I agree or disagree with David's story. I just thought it would be a fun post. I do however agree that most of the break in we hear is less from the gear and more the listener adapting to the new sound. Anyways thanks for your detailed reply, very good points you have raised.

Actually like most things in life, it's not black or white or shades of grey. Break-in is both things happening concurrently. Manufacturers how shown the changes especially that happen with Teflon capacitors when they are burned in. I can't seem to find it on my computer about how the teflon caps when new are very fluid and change with playing. Also for instance, chokes also with burning in.
 
my rule is no rules.

sometimes it's the first 3 seconds where my world gets rocked......

in June i was down at the Newport audio show, and i got a chance to hear the new pre-production darTZeel preamp when used as a phono stage for the new dart integrated dac. i could tell some amazing things were happening, but it was a show, and i was hearing thru the integrated. i was able to convince Mr. darTZeel to allow me to have it at my home for a couple of weeks to audition it next to my current 8 year old but fully updated dart pre.

a few days later it was all plugged into my system and i sat down to listen to an Lp. as soon as the needle hit the record, i could esily hear the much larger soundstage and much reduced noise floor. dramatic. with the first played note the increased dynamics shouted out to me.

i'd say one second was all it took for my world reference to change dramatically.

after two weeks and dozens of visitors who were familiar with my system those same perceptions were still operative. and now three months later i'm still jonesing for my new pre to arrive....i'm told mid October.

i've had other situations where i'm exposed to a product that changes my reference enough to be a 'three second rule' product....which i could list. but really how many times can that happen?

sometimes i need to stop thinking and just listen for awhile......

7 or 8 years ago i was using Grand Prix Audio Monaco racks. loved them. it was suggested that i mass load them for even greater performance. so i researched the proper loading material and settled on steel shot. i went to a local gun shop and purchased a number of bags of shot. them i went home and loaded it into my GPA rack legs very carefully....and then i listened. i wanted to like it. i listened for an afternoon and did like it. then the next day i got up and started listening again and noticed some of the life was missing from the music. then the more i listened i realized that the system was dead sounding. there was no life. more information in certain ways, but lacking the boggie factor.

so i removed the steel shot and the life came back. turned out that on my 6 inch concrete floor that the GPA did not need any mass loading. on some some suspended wood floors mass loading can settle the rack down and reduce resonance.

mostly when i have new gear or a system change i first will listen to my reference recordings and listen with my brain to changes. what sounds different? then later i just try to listen casually and then pay attention to how i feel each session. how does my body like the change? are my shoulders relaxed? does the music demand attention in a good way? am i sucked in?

from time to time my system gets used for product testing or development....so during those sessions i learn alot about how i interact with changes. and every time i set up a cartridge there is a part of it which is fine tuning by ear. so i need to have a process to interpret changes to move toward ideal performance.

it's something we learn. but being open to any possibility is a big issue. if every gear change requires a world rocking 'three second rule' effect then i think that becomes unrealisitic. mostly i prefer a good amount of time to be my proof of concept. i want to be stoked to hear my system every day.
 
Thanks Mike really enjoyed reading your thoughts.

Of course, you are kinda intimately familiar with the Dart stuff so makes those decisions easier. :)
 
I thought it meant if you dropped a record on the ground, it would play fine if you picked it up within 3 seconds, just like a piece of pizza.

Larry
 
Thanks Mike really enjoyed reading your thoughts.

thanks.

Of course, you are kinda intimately familiar with the Dart stuff so makes those decisions easier. :)

no doubt. my reference has been the current model dart preamp for 8 years.

and just as important is that my system is optimized for the dart preamp since I use the proprietary 'zeel' interconnects and use the big-boy dart NHB-458 monoblocks. the new dart pre was designed using that exact gear and even (MM3) Evolution Acoustics speakers.
 
Mike...I can't tell you how many times I have checked out your system on the Gon and read your comments about your system as it has evolved over time. Thanks for sharing your thoughts :thumbsup:

I also agree with Myles that there are so many factors that first impressions can be quite deceiving.

I am lucky enough to have a local dealer (Goodwins High End) that really know how to cater to the audiophile customer. Whenever I want to listen to a piece of gear, I can ask it to be set up in a system I am familiar with and I get 2-3 hours of alone listening time. And I will often go back and listen to it another time or two to confirm initial impressions (and take into account that as Myles mentioned we change from day to day in how we perceive music coming out of a system based on how we are feeling physically, mood wise etc...).

But for me, the process is always the same. I take music with me that I am very familiar with and that I know when the conditions are right will "suck me in emotionally." Ultimately this is what I want my system to do. I want it to transport me emotionally and physically to the event. In any case, within each 2-3 hour listening session, I go through my music material and listen for all the audiophile stuff to evaluate a piece of gear's or system's resolution, tonal qualities, ability to render timbre accurately, dynamics, timing, imaging, sound staging etc...Usually this "critical listening" takes about half the time. I then shut that off and then I just relax and listen to the music and I just notice how I am feeling: am I still paying attention to the audiophile stuff or is my foot tapping, is my head nodding, have I closed my eyes and am I getting swooped up by the emption of the music, and ultimately am I being engrossed and transported to the venue? If the piece of gear or system is capable of transporting me emotionally to another time and place then it has what it takes. At that point I will go back to the "critical listening" phase and re-evaluate it on the parameters important to me (timbre, dynamics/timing, imaging/staging, etc...).

Where I do agree in principle with the "three-second" rule (or really probably the 5 minute rule for me) is sometimes you will sit down and listen to a system and know immediately something is not right. If this happens in a room and system you are familiar with or if you are demoing a piece of gear in your own system that you know very well and this happens, then despite the many caveats that Myles threw out, that first impression does often make a lasting impression with me (rightly or wrongly) and even if I spend another couple of hours with that piece of gear, I am often unlikely to change my mind on it.

As many have said, we all have our ways of evaluating and listening to gear, and it's interesting to read how other folks evaluate gear purchasing decisions.
 
Mike...I can't tell you how many times I have checked out your system on the Gon and read your comments about your system as it has evolved over time. Thanks for sharing your thoughts :thumbsup:

I also agree with Myles that there are so many factors that first impressions can be quite deceiving.

I am lucky enough to have a local dealer (Goodwins High End) that really know how to cater to the audiophile customer. Whenever I want to listen to a piece of gear, I can ask it to be set up in a system I am familiar with and I get 2-3 hours of alone listening time. And I will often go back and listen to it another time or two to confirm initial impressions (and take into account that as Myles mentioned we change from day to day in how we perceive music coming out of a system based on how we are feeling physically, mood wise etc...).

But for me, the process is always the same. I take music with me that I am very familiar with and that I know when the conditions are right will "suck me in emotionally." Ultimately this is what I want my system to do. I want it to transport me emotionally and physically to the event. In any case, within each 2-3 hour listening session, I go through my music material and listen for all the audiophile stuff to evaluate a piece of gear's or system's resolution, tonal qualities, ability to render timbre accurately, dynamics, timing, imaging, sound staging etc...Usually this "critical listening" takes about half the time. I then shut that off and then I just relax and listen to the music and I just notice how I am feeling: am I still paying attention to the audiophile stuff or is my foot tapping, is my head nodding, have I closed my eyes and am I getting swooped up by the emption of the music, and ultimately am I being engrossed and transported to the venue? If the piece of gear or system is capable of transporting me emotionally to another time and place then it has what it takes. At that point I will go back to the "critical listening" phase and re-evaluate it on the parameters important to me (timbre, dynamics/timing, imaging/staging, etc...).

Where I do agree in principle with the "three-second" rule (or really probably the 5 minute rule for me) is sometimes you will sit down and listen to a system and know immediately something is not right. If this happens in a room and system you are familiar with or if you are demoing a piece of gear in your own system that you know very well and this happens, then despite the many caveats that Myles threw out, that first impression does often make a lasting impression with me (rightly or wrongly) and even if I spend another couple of hours with that piece of gear, I am often unlikely to change my mind on it.

As many have said, we all have our ways of evaluating and listening to gear, and it's interesting to read how other folks evaluate gear purchasing decisions.

I can't tell you how many times had a new piece in the system and for the first sixty minutes sat listening reveling in the new found information. Then at minute 61 realized had a splitting headache. :(
 
I can't tell you how many times had a new piece in the system and for the first sixty minutes sat listening reveling in the new found information. Then at minute 61 realized had a splitting headache. :(

Myles...I hear you. And for me, just the audiophile traits are not enough. A piece of gear can be very resolving with tons of detail (instrument separation, layers of sound, imaging and staging cues, etc...) and not be grating or fatiguing but if some other factor is off and it does not get you there emotionally, then it's a no go. For me some pieces of gear are very pleasing on an intellectual/critical listening level even over long periods of listening but something is off and I just don't get emotionally sucked in. There is one brand of speakers, that I will not mention, that is highly respected and extremely well engineered. I have listened to many of this company's speaker models. And each time I walk away being very impressed. But never emotionally compromised by them. I can appreciate them for what they do. But I never walk away feeling like I was emotionally sucked in. (And no I will not name the speaker brand... :D).
 
Another thing to think about is something that George Tice once said to me many years ago. Everything makes a difference; but is that difference good or bad? It's the latter that takes work and time to decide.
 
The only things I have heard that were 'bad' at the start, and then improved were new speakers. With both my PSB Synchrony Ones, and Aerial Acoustics 7T, speakers, a week or so later I sat up and thought, "Hey, this really sounds good". I remember when I bought my Aerials my first thought was, "I paid 10k for this?" :)

However, as soon as I played one note through my Magico S5s I said, "This is much better.", referring to the Aerials. Of course, by buying used, they were already broken in.

In so far as electronics and cables, I have yet to go backwards with my initial impression.
 
The only things I have heard that were 'bad' at the start, and then improved were new speakers. With both my PSB Synchrony Ones, and Aerial Acoustics 7T, speakers, a week or so later I sat up and thought, "Hey, this really sounds good". I remember when I bought my Aerials my first thought was, "I paid 10k for this?" :)

However, as soon as I played one note through my Magico S5s I said, "This is much better.", referring to the Aerials. Of course, by buying used, they were already broken in.

In so far as electronics and cables, I have yet to go backwards with my initial impression.


Bud, my first thoughts after hearing the Strads when I had them was 'Is that it?"
I've heard plenty of systems & in the first 3 seconds have thought wow, this is good & then walked away from the same hours after & totally written them off. Also after many listening sessions I have bought components, speakers etc. that i thought was not to my liking at the initial hearing.
 
I will have to disagree with this almost totally . Yes I agree I can generally know if the system is coming together or just wasting my time almost instantly. The truth I've found is the only thing harder to figure out then a mad woman is top tier audio . The slightest thing seems to be able to make all the difference in the world . I recently had a project with Eventus NEO speakers running off about 300k in headend gear . Upon completion something was just WRONG !! In my mind I'm panicking thinking the NEO is just not up to it's 1/4 million $ price tag and I am going to have one pissed off client . Day after day I switched out almost everything in the system yet just couldn't get what I knew the system should be . After moving in and out about 2 mil in gear with no satisfaction I was hours from the dreaded phone call on what the restocking fee is on a pair of NEO . Then just on a shot in the dark I pulled all the 5k interconnects and 15k speaker cables and searched for whatever I had that was different ( in this case the existing was all sliver ) so focused on cabling with little silver content .. Total surprise we had a huge improvement . Naturally we moved on removed all the power cords and cabling and went to PSS copper with no silver content . WHAMM ! We were in business and it was singing . For whatever reason the system as a whole did not like silver in it's blood . That's just one example. The other disagreement is in all my years I am a firm believer you have no chance of judging how good or bad a system is until you have full and total control of the room it's in . That takes serious time to get right but is well worth every min . A 15k system in a well done room will out perform a 150k system in a crap room every day of the week . So 3 sec clip would tell me very little about the system as a whole , maybe a new table or cart you could get the gist in a 3 sec clip , but only if you are very familiar with the existing system .
 
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