Much better than chucking DSP at a problem caused mostly by poor speaker choice, poor speaker set-up and poor room treatment is surely to do as much to rectify those problems, before deliberately spoiling the amp's nice flat frequency response?
The Power Amp is an important part of the system.
- Thread starter JCS123
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Much better than chucking DSP at a problem caused mostly by poor speaker choice, poor speaker set-up and poor room treatment is surely to do as much to rectify those problems, before deliberately spoiling the amp's nice flat frequency response?
You misunderstand what DSP does. Good speakers, good placement, good room—and DSP. They’re complements, not competitors.
Au contraire! I believe you are misundersting DSP, sometimes referred to as "Room Correction". It is there to adjust the amplifier's output to compensate for differences of frequency response at the listening position.
If the response at the listening position is dead flat, then no DSP is required. I'm suggesting there are other, more effective and less intrusive ways to achieve something like a flat response at the listening position - better speaker choice, better speaker setting up, and better room treatment.
DSP has its place but the more carefully a system is chosen and set up, the less need there is for DSP. DIY speaker builders are unlikely to be able to build an accurate speaker with a flat response, so DSP would be a huge help. AV / HT users who have multiple speakers and are often incapable of setting up this complex system optimally themselves may need to resort to DSP, but surely those of us with “simple” 2-channel stereo systems should be able to get them working as they are designed to work.
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Mr Peabody
Well-known member
I don't use DSP for 2-channel and wanted to stay out of this your logic is flawed though. If pushed I think DSP would be easier than continually trying to find a speaker that fits the response you are looking for. Notice I didn't say "flat", most people would not like a flat response when presented one. The way you describe setting up the system would be like a perpetual puzzle or pursuit. Let's try this brand speaker, well maybe with this room treatment or let's place it here.
I think if being honest most put a system together, put it in their room, adjust speaker placement, some may add treatments if the room permits or desired. Then enjoy.
As I stated before this room treatment thing is something to try at some point but has gotten to be way over blown and parroted. Some people actually prefer a more live room. I've found with dealing with first reflections and well placed panel in a corner that focus and clarity improved. As someone pointed out it may depend on the room, YMMV
As for DSP at this point I wouldn't use it for 2-channel. I have for home theater. Interestingly to your comment I set up my HT using a SPL meter and found the built-in set up with microphone did much better. I think I like flat for HT.
I'm not convinced of the signal integrity using DSP and for some reason the industry is making it more complex opposed to simple. One reason I keep my old processor. Just hook the ole microphone and let it rip. I don't want to mess with a laptop and all of the complexity of the DSP stuff you see today.
I remember in the early to mid 90's Yamaha making a splash with DSP, there were add-on units for home theater and stereo with settings like "hall", "stadium", "Rock" etc. This was fun for consumers for a minute then faded. I think Yamaha and a few others kept some of that in HT receivers. Now due to Wiim this gimmicky stuff is trying to make a comeback. I played with the Wiim and personally didn't think the DSP was a serious tool. It could be more expanded on the top model but not if they use the same UI. Personally I would think if AG offered DSP on their speakers as they do it would be a good tool to use. With that being said I know many who prefer their HT set up sound without DSP. Several of the powered speaker brands have the built-in DSP.
From what I can tell most manufacturers offer DSP for the bass which they feel is most important then upcharge for the full version.
When major players offer DSP like D'Agostino, Pass, Esoteric, etc. and only if I like what it did and it was simple to use I could get interested.
We get caught up in absolutes and forget different strokes........
I think we are on the same wavelength as I agree with what you say in general. I described an accurate system as “flat”, and you correctly took me up on that. Indeed, I don’t like dead accuracy as I found with a dead-accurate Benchmark amp – it was drearily dull. Good sounding amps that have features one appreciates (perhaps SETs with their well-known and often liked harmonic distortion) are really what we should be looking for and after my disappointing Benchmark purchase, I bought or borrowed numerous (all “good”) amps to decide which offered the subtly different sound that I most liked - and was well matched with my speakers. Some sounded so much better than others despite similar specs on paper.
I agree it’s difficult to do this sort of comparison with speakers, but so many people seem to ignore the features of their own listening rooms and buy a speaker solely on recommendations or how good it sounds at shows or showrooms, or even bring their old speakers into their new listening room when they move home.
I was caught out when I bought a pair of Martin Logan speakers that were well reviewed and sounded great in the London dealer’s showroom. When installed in my own listening room, they were seriously disappointing, despite the efforts of the UK distributor at the time and its optional Anthem DSP. Even these couldn’t make this costly speaker deliver the excitement I was looking for, so they were sold at a significant loss. All speaker purchases (at least new purchases) should be committed to only after a home demo as what you hear in a showroom may be far from what the same speaker will deliver in your own home. It needs far more research than any other purchase but get the right speaker to suit your room (with a well-matched amp) and DSP should never be necessary.
You mention Avantgarde speakers having DSP and other hybrid types too. This is true but of course these speakers only use DSP in their built-in bass amps, thus allowing mid and top frequencies to reach their drivers directly from the main amp and totally untouched by DSP. As it happens, I don’t find that the inbuilt DSP in my AG speakers makes a worthwhile improvement to the sound I get at my listening position, though I’m sure it may be marginally more accurate. I care less with what a microphone and laptop tell me, than with what my ears and brain tell me.
I doubt very much that high end amplifier brands such as the ones you mention will ever include DSP as it really does harm the top end if installed in a full-range amplifier – see my post #42 above and people with that sort of budget should get professional expertise to recommend speakers for their particular rooms – and arrange home demos of course too.
It sounds from your post that you have speakers that suit your particular room. I think I have also found a good match for my room, despite our speakers being probably as different as chalk and cheese! They have both been well chosen and don’t need the amplifier’s output to be messed with for the speakers to offer the excitement factor we get from a live performance and reproduced pretty well in our living rooms.
atmasphere
Active member
Bass is often the one thing DSP cannot fix. For that you need a Distributed Bass Array, since standing waves are the primary reason DSP can't fix bass. If a standing wave is cancelling bass energy at the listening position, the DSP will make the amp put out more power, which will simply be cancelled by the standing wave. So the amp will run out of gas.
Once you have the bass fixed using a DBA, that takes care of about 95% of what a DSP does anyway, so maybe you don't need it. Also once the bass is fixed, the DSP can really do its job a lot more effectively.
Ralph - By Distributed Bass Array, I take it that you are meaning that subs should be added and placed to counter room modes, rather than plonking them next to the main speakers. If correctly located, subs will reinforce the small frequency range that may be missing as a result of these room modes. Or have I misunderstood DBAs? I take it you are not a fan of DSP for “room correction”.
atmasphere
Active member
Room modes are caused by standing waves, so 'yes' to that bit. In my room despite my speakers being flat to 20Hz bass is weak at the listening position, but strong elsewhere in the room (near the walls) and elsewhere in the house. By adding two subs, one to my left and the other behind me, this problem was solved. The subs are active below 50Hz or so.
I'm OK with DSP once this issue is solved, which isn't to say that I have it set up in my room. I'm slight on the plus side of ambivalent since the DBA is really doing the heavy lifting.
I think you missed his point. He said "your logic is flawed"