The biggest secret has been revealed?!

[MPW]

Not sure if this is the right spot, but is there a good iPhone ap for measuring room acoustics?
Don't want to spend a lot, but would help fine tuning my room.
Thanks!

I would suggest Room EQ Wizard (REW) and the minidsp UMIK-1 USB microphone. REW is free and the mic is $75. If you have a microphone stand, you are all set. Under $100 to get all of the info you ever wanted about your room. The link below has some good, common sense recommendations on what to look for with measurements.

http://www.acousticfrontiers.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/10/acoustic_measurement_standards.pdf

 

[nicoff]

I am using DBA and DSP. Could not be happier with the results.
IMO, DSP makes a much bigger difference than a merely 5%. Leading speaker manufacturers use DSP to improve their bass frequencies. And if used properly, DSP can effectively be used above bass frequencies.

 

[Devg]

Is there a comprehensive guide to DBA ?

 

[MPW]

Is there a comprehensive guide to DBA ?

Not that I am aware of. Duke LeJeune of AudioKinesis has popularized the technique with his Swarm product. If you google Duke LeJeune and Swarm you will get a lot of forum discussions on the merits and methods of setup. Hope that helps.

 

[nicoff]

Just to clarify, I used the term DBA loosely. I hired an audio expert to help set up my subs. He used multiple subs arranged asymmetrically in the room operating at 80hz. He did not call it DBA, but the idea is the same and the set up eliminates standing waves and do not call attention to the subs.

 

[atmasphere]

I am using DBA and DSP. Could not be happier with the results.
IMO, DSP makes a much bigger difference than a merely 5%. Leading speaker manufacturers use DSP to improve their bass frequencies. And if used properly, DSP can effectively be used above bass frequencies.

If you have a DBA to start with, then your room correction can now do what it is meant to do.

 

[Spock]

It seems to me of some humility, to recognize that they have tried and continue to try to find the best solution.
Because it's not easy ...

https://www.monoandstereo.com/2021/03/new-msb-technology-spike-feet.html#more

 

[Stehno]

The biggest secret has been revealed!

For those who want to believe!:signhere:

Whoever takes a walk on my topic understands how this is a permanent concern.

I would like to point out the special concern of the author with the decoupling of the speakers from the floor (in my opinion the most critical point of an audio system - more important than the placement in the room – yeah, i stand alone in this opinion), and the care to be taken with the vibration of the transformers themselves.

From the text:

Not enough has been written concerning the effects of vibration on high-end audio components. I am surprised. Unwanted vibrations have a serious, adverse impact on the performance of most, if not all, modern audio and video equipment. The reduction or removal of these vibrations can significantly improve the resolution of every system.

…vibrations that can travel through the structure, potentially affecting sensitive board-level circuit components. Less obvious, but in some ways more problematic, are transformers.

Speakers, the component responsible for producing the vibrations we seek to quell, require careful placement techniques to ensure the best performance and least interference.

Manufacturers are just beginning to scratch the surface of this very important aspect of equipment design/construction.

Designers and Engineers are advancing the art of controlling vibrational energy at the component level, but still more needs to be done.

Indeed the subject matter from a performance perspective is by far the biggest and best kept secret in the industry. And considering the text you highlighted above, it seems obvious to me the secret will remain hidden for some time to come.

For example. The author claims that speakers are the component most responsible for producting the vibrations we seek to quell. To the best of my knowledge there simply is little to no truth with that statement. Hence, if we don't know the true source of the vibrations we seek to quell, we most likely are quelling the wrong thing, using incorrect methods, materials, designs, etc.

IOW, I anticipate very few improvements resulting from their endeavors since they're already starting off on the wrong foot. But at least they've got the right target on the wall. Sort of.

 

[Spock]

Well, let me welcome you :hey: and thank you for your 1st post on a topic that I’ve opened.
It’s good to know that I’m not alone in this matter. :yahoo1:

Indeed the subject matter from a performance perspective is by far the biggest and best kept secret in the industry.

Totally with you. And, from my opinion, there is everything to say about this. Like about cables... Tons of words and where did we get? Nowhere.

And considering the text you highlighted above, it seems obvious to me the secret will remain hidden for some time to come.

True, but it´s not author´s fault. He´s just advertising the subject from what he knows. Like me. And i don´t know nothing. I don´t have the answers just the questions. The problem is when the engineers and CEO´s at the brands just don´t care about it. I wonder how someone can have a lifetime in this hobby and never having encountered and deepened these questions.

Hence, if we don't know the true source of the vibrations we seek to quell, we most likely are quelling the wrong thing, using incorrect methods, materials, designs, etc.

To me, it´s all about vibrations. You can see here APRESENTACAO E...DESPEDIDA ? (SPOCK) - Pagina 3 what i said in 21/03/2015

…What, then, are the fundamental factors for the marked improvement in reproduction? Well, these factors have already been identified by many, so I have no fantastic findings to report to you. But it is worth remembering them and they are:
- (micro) vibrations
- EMI / RFI interference
- electricity?
Starting with the last one and explaining the question mark. There is no shortage of people who consider the issue of electricity to be the most important of all. And how many solutions do exist on the market, supposedly to improve the quality of the system's sap.
.../...
So what importance do I give to electricity? Huge in terms of its influence on the sound, but with a difference in approach that I want to clarify. The result of recent experiences with power cables, leads me to think that electricity is fundamentally influenced by the combination of the first two factors - vibrations and interference -, and it is essentially these polluting agents that make it different. In other words, according to this conviction, it would not even make much sense to place electricity as one of the 3 key elements for a quality sound because it does not seem to be the electric current per se producing differences. But on the other hand, there is another influential factor that is inherent and that is the conductive metal itself. Also in terms of electrical power, the distinctive sound of copper versus silver is felt. But in addition to the type of metal in fact influencing, many are the testimonies of various audiophiles (where I also include myself) that the decrease in resistance by increasing the section is also decisive. Essentially, I will say that a “polluted” electricity with spurious vibrations and EMI / RFI interference can absolutely compromise the performance of the most expensive of systems. Hence, and in summary, in a process of simplification of analysis, I am not disgusted that we can speak of electrical current as an independent factor capable of influencing the sound of a system.

 

[Stehno]

Thanks for the welcome, Spock. And thanks for the kind and open-minded response. You say you have no answers but you've obvlously got some good insight going for you. Especially when you correlate vibrations energy mgmt to electrical energy mgmt because that's exactly what it's about. As I like to say, electrical and mechanical energies are the two very energies required for every last playback system, yet when poorly managed will induce by far the biggest performance-limiting governor such that our playback systems can only perform far closer to their base performance potentials rather than their optimal potentials. I've dabbled with this stuff for 19 years now and it was only in this past year that I connected the dots and realized it's all about managing the electrical energy and the biggest impact there is by managing the resonant energy that electrical energy creates.

Near as I can tell the noisy/dirty AC coming in from the street as well as the electrical energy being further corrupted within the components / cables along the input signal path is what establishes our playback system's noise floor (NF). The NF is a threshold that determines what percentage of the music info read from a recording and processed will remain audible (above the NF threshold) at the speaker. As well as determine the percentage of music info read and processed that remains inaudible (below the NF threshold) at the speaker. It's a percentage thing really and of course we start out by reading 100% of the music info embedded in a given recording.

But the important part is to consider that even a SOTA-level playback system right out of the box and after burn-in, starts out with a much raised noise floor. IOW, nobody escapes the much raised noise floor dilemma as it's a univeral matter.

These universal distortions in question (both audible but mostly inaudible) are so severe that when sufficiently addressed, I've no problem claiming the sonic harm induced by mechanical and primarily electrical easily outweigh any other collection of distortions. However, that should be a given since these two energies probably make up 90% of all distortions in our systems. IOW, electrical and mechanical energy management products, strategies, and methods determine the foundation of every last playback system - whether inferior or superior. And it is the foundation that ultimately determines the performance levels of everything associated with it.

Nevertheless, you are correct in your assertion that electrical energy and its management is absolutely paramount from a performance perspective.

I'll have to dive a bit deeper into your threads about this but from the sound of one of your vimeo videos on drums it sounds like you're really onto something in that other thread. Congratulations and thanks for the kind response.

 

[BlueFox]

Vibration elimination has been known for years as a means for improving the sound. I have Mapleshade Micropoint brass footers under my gear, Magico SPOD footers on my speakers, and a 400 pound maple rack to reduce vibrations in the gear.

 

[Stehno]

Vibration elimination has been known for years as a means for improving the sound. I have Mapleshade Micropoint brass footers under my gear, Magico SPOD footers on my speakers, and a 400 pound maple rack to reduce vibrations in the gear.

Agreed. I think it primarily started with Steve McCormack in the early 90's with his "tip-toe" brass points. But hopefully nobody would argue that designs, materials, methods, executions, and efforts are not all identical or that such things don't matter.

 

[W9TR]

The best way to isolate components from airborne vibration is to remove them from the room entirely and then deal with any remaining structure-borne vibration. I’m surprised so few people do this, even when building dedicated rooms. I guess we like to look at all the pretty audio jewelry when listening.

Ralph mentioned DBA - the best treatise I’ve found on the subject is titled ‘multisubs’ and authored by people at Harman.

 

[MPW]

The best way to isolate components from airborne vibration is to remove them from the room entirely and then deal with any remaining structure-borne vibration. I’m surprised so few people do this, even when building dedicated rooms. I guess we like to look at all the pretty audio jewelry when listening.

Ralph mentioned DBA - the best treatise I’ve found on the subject is titled ‘multisubs’ and authored by people at Harman.

This is exactly what I have done. I have most of my components in a closet adjacent to my listening room. I am working on controlling structure-borne vibration in the closet as we speak. I will post pics when this is complete.

 

[Stehno]

The best way to isolate components from airborne vibration is to remove them from the room entirely and then deal with any remaining structure-borne vibration. I’m surprised so few people do this, even when building dedicated rooms. I guess we like to look at all the pretty audio jewelry when listening.

Ralph mentioned DBA - the best treatise I’ve found on the subject is titled ‘multisubs’ and authored by people at Harman.

I'm curious how exactly does one successfully isolate an object from vibrations. Remove them from the room? How might that be possible since the room is overwhelmed with vibrations i.e. sound?

Are you not talking about accomplishing the impossible? The world and everything in it consists of vibrations.

 

[CPP]

I tell ya, vibrations, have you actually measured the amount of vibrations you get say around a TT, or audio RACK. So simple, get yourself a seismometer app for your phone, like Hamm Seismograp‪h, Vibration analysi‪s‬ by Dmitriy Kharutskiy. for ex. Check before and after you spend the money on expense vibration gear.

 

[stereogeek]

I will post a picture later (if I can remember how) of how to lessen bass with a small block of wood.

 

[sb6]

The biggest problem most people run into with room acoustics is getting the bass right. The usual problem is standing waves in the room, which might allow bass to be almost everywhere except the listening chair. This is a very common problem!

Its usually something that happens below 80Hz so there is an elegant solution, which is to use something called a Distributed Bass Array. Because your ears cannot acknowledge a sound until the entire waveform has passed by your ear, and because at 80Hz the waveform is 14 feet long, in most rooms this means the bass fundamentals are omnidirectional. Because of this, you can asymmetrically place subwoofers about the room, none of them operating above 80Hz, and thus break up the standing waves, resulting in evenly distributed bass throughout the room. As long as the subs do not have any output above 80Hz they will not attract attention to themselves so your main speakers will be convincing you of where the bass is coming from.

There are three approaches to dealing with bass problems in a room; the other two are DSP room correction and bass traps. Compared to a DBA, these latter two solutions are about 5% effective. They can fix a peak, but not a null due to cancellation, as a null will need the bass to be boosted. Since cancellation is going on, you can put thousands of watts into that cancellation and not get much in the way of results!

If your room seems bright, its best to make sure the bass is right first, since if the bass is shy, your ears will tend to tell you things are tilted to the highs which of course they are. Get the bass right and the room might not seem so bright.

I partially agree. Allow me to explain - It is true that the human ear cannot localize sounds <80Hz, some say even up to 100Hz. However, you can feel the pressure and subs positioning will affect how the bass pressure is felt. For example, subs that are close to the mains provide what I find is the most accurate and uniform pressure for low frequencies, however, subs in close proximity to mains is, in most situations a mess since you exacerbate room modes with added low frequency drivers next to your mains. So there's a compromise.

WRT sub placement asymmetrically in the room - I agree, but you can't place them simply anywhere in the room. And placement matters not only in width or length but in the height of the sub. This takes significant time and measurements (+ ears to fine tune) IME but yields amazing results when integrated well.

WRT your 3 approaches and DBA - DSP and bass traps' effectiveness depends on room size and personal preference. For example a Distributed Bass Array would not be practical in a small room, say 10' x 12' since A) You may encounter a lack of free space for placement B) While there are benefits of smoothing out room modes there are usually added reverberations which a small room untreated simply cannot manage. DSP, employed carefully and sparingly can be a wonderful tool. And every and any room will benefit from room treatment including bass traps.

The answer is use them all: multiple subs + DSP + room treatment used judiciously and in concert is the best way to yield accurate, articulate and even bass. BTW, I use all 3

 

[Stehno]

I partially agree. Allow me to explain - It is true that the human ear cannot localize sounds <80Hz, some say even up to 100Hz. However, you can feel the pressure and subs positioning will affect how the bass pressure is felt. For example, subs that are close to the mains provide what I find is the most accurate and uniform pressure for low frequencies, however, subs in close proximity to mains is, in most situations a mess since you exacerbate room modes with added low frequency drivers next to your mains. So there's a compromise.

WRT sub placement asymmetrically in the room - I agree, but you can't place them simply anywhere in the room. And placement matters not only in width or length but in the height of the sub. This takes significant time and measurements (+ ears to fine tune) IME but yields amazing results when integrated well.

WRT your 3 approaches and DBA - DSP and bass traps' effectiveness depends on room size and personal preference. For example a Distributed Bass Array would not be practical in a small room, say 10' x 12' since A) You may encounter a lack of free space for placement B) While there are benefits of smoothing out room modes there are usually added reverberations which a small room untreated simply cannot manage. DSP, employed carefully and sparingly can be a wonderful tool. And every and any room will benefit from room treatment including bass traps.

The answer is use them all: multiple subs + DSP + room treatment used judiciously and in concert is the best way to yield accurate, articulate and even bass. BTW, I use all 3

The topic is "Biggest Secret Has Been Revealed" having to do with vibration mgmt. Something more than what the usual status quo presumably.

IMO, the secret has yet to be revealed because it really has to do with extreme forms of electrical mgmt by the use of extreme forms of vibration mgmt. When this is accomplished, far greater percentages of the music info read from a recording and processed through a playbck system, will remain audible at the speaker. Including volumes and volumes of the live performance's ambient info captured in even many inferior recordings such that our listening perspecitve is now somewhere / anywhere in the recording hall. IOW, we're hearing so much more of the live performance that perhaps every last room acoustic anomaly has been completely overshadowed and for all intensive purposes the room is gone. This implies we no longer need to concern ourselves with room acoustic treatments nor do we need to consider "the room" as the most important component anymore.

In summary, extreme forms of electrical mgmt and extreme forms of vibration mgmt will DRASTICALLY lower a playback system's noise floor so much greater percentages of the music info becomes audible above the much lowered noise floor and as a result completely overshadow most/all room acoustic anomalies whereas with a much raised noise floor the music info must compete head-on with a room's acoustic anomalies. The playback system's noise floor mostly or entirely consists of electrical energy.

On the other hand and what you and atmosphere are alluding to is another noise floor of sorts. This noise floor (NF) is focused between a given speaker and given room and is acoustic in nature. Move a speaker 1/2-inch here or there and bass notes become audible or inaudible. When a speaker is acoustically dialed in to a given room, we hear a tighter, deeper, more pronounced, more well-defined bass we didn't even know existed or was possible.

The combination of successfully addressing both of these electrical and acoustical noise floors should negate the need for any room acoustic treatments whatsoever and the thought that the room is the most important component are completely gone. Because when successfully accomplished every last room acoustic anomaly has been so completely overshadowed with more music info now audible from the recording that our ears have been transported to somewhere / anywhere at the recording hall. Even if that perspective is somewhere near the restrooms at the recording hall.

This fun little in-room video below is not my best example but if you crank it up a bit I think you'll notice that your listening perspective is somewhere at the live concert and at somewhat live concert volume levels. The in-room volume level peaks were around 104-105db.

Anyway, the topic is "The Biggest Secret Revealed?" and the complete disregard for room acoustic anomalies in a somewhat reasonable room is just one of the many resulting benefits. IMO. And FWIW, 65% of my entire system's retail costs are dedicated solely to extreme forms of electrical and mechanical energy mgmt and I do nothing specifically to address my slightly smaller listening room's (formerly a kitchen) acoustic anomalies. Well, other than spending months or years trying to find an optimal location for my speakers and fine-tuning my subwoofer.

 

[Spock]

...This implies we no longer need to concern ourselves with room acoustic treatments nor do we need to consider "the room" as the most important component anymore.

The combination of successfully addressing both of these electrical and acoustical noise floors should negate the need for any room acoustic treatments whatsoever and the thought that the room is the most important component are completely gone.

I have no time to a complete answer now but, WOW!
I´m not alone in this matter too!

:Bow::Bow::Bow:

I´ll be back!