The Audiohpile Ear

[TheOctopus]

Now, I know we all rely on our "ears" to judge the outcome of such things as comparison of cables, components, speakers, etc...

We are often left with no other choice as "science" and the "audio world" do not always walk hand in hand and we know that all too well.

When science fails to offer a measurable difference in cables, when amplifiers measure the same, different power cords measure the same... We still claim to hear a substantial difference and the difference, or that which is immeasurable at this point, must be an elusive, mystical and perhaps quantum level phenomena.

Surely we have to have confidence in our "ears" or our hobby would be sort of pointless as far as chasing cables, isolation tweaks and other gadgets and gizmos go.

But... if some of the audiophiles are not musicians (much like many musicians are not audiophiles) could our ears be as good or perhaps better than a trained musician?

Many of us have heard the wonderful and almost mystical sound of a Stradivarius or Guarneri violin. Some claim they can never be duplicated. They cost upwards of $8M dollars. The sound is sublime.

Surely then professional musicians and specifically pro violin players should be able to hear a difference between a Stradivarius and a new violin while blindfolded?

Turns out that is not the case at all. I found that very surprising. https://www.newscientist.com/articl...spot-stradivarius-in-blind-test/#.U0QrXK2wJi5

So who thinks the "Audiophile Ear" is different from a "Professional Musican Ear" and could there be a difference?

 

[AJ Soundfield]

This has the potential to get ugly, but here goes.

Surely then professional musicians and specifically pro violin players should be able to hear a difference between a Stradivarius and a new violin while blindfolded?

Turns out that is not the case at all. I found that very surprising. https://www.newscientist.com/article.../#.U0QrXK2wJi5

So who thinks the "Audiophile Ear" is different from a "Professional Musican Ear" and could there be a difference?

No, they are both connected to human brains.
There are countless other studies that will show the same type thing. Not that all amps and cables. etc. sound the same - they don't, but rather that in many cases, if you reduce things to sound>ears only, there may be either no difference detected, or you did, but it turns out you prefer the opposite than you thought you did. I've seen plenty of both.
The issue, is that you don't "hear" only the "sound" of a Strad or an amp or cable, except in a controlled/blind test. In "real life" "listening" you experience it. With your eyes, with your preconceived notions, touch, feel, belief, etc, etc. etc. Our only CPU has multi-sensory input. All are telling it something.
It is only under that condition, if it makes you happy, that should should base your decisions on.
A Timex may actually tell time slightly more accurately than a Rolex, not the opposite. But if offered either for free, most will take the Rolex. They both tell the same time. But the intrinsic pleasure, pride of ownership, "experience", etc. derived from the Rolex, will not be the same as the Timex. Just don't bash the Timex, Pioneer amp, Monster cable or the new violin. They may make you look silly in a blind test.
Instead, enjoy the total experience of what you have, for what it is. There is strong science to suggest one really does derive more pleasure if one believes that thing is "better", regardless of whether it is.

cheers,

AJ

 

[TheOctopus]

I agree. Our preconceived notions that something is more desirable and better because it is more expensive, up to and including hearing differences in a more expensive cable may very well be the explanation. The blindfold tests seem to confirm that fact, even when it comes to Stradivarius violins and professional ears. If one "expects" to hear a difference, it will be heard. When one does not involve the other senses and has no bias since it is not a purchase but an objective "blind" test, things become much more complex. But the main point is probably this, whether that cable made a difference or not, if one believes it did, it is all that matters to that individual. Illusion becomes indistinguishable from reality.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

Here is one of the best I know of:

https://www.pnas.org/content/pnas/105/3/1050.full.pdf

We conjecture that any action affecting expectations of product quality, such as expert quality ratings; peer reviews; information about country of origin, store, and brand names (especially those associated with luxury products); and repeated exposure to advertisements might lead to effects similar to those identified here.
The paper provides evidence for the ability of marketing actions to modulate neural correlates of experienced pleasantness and for the mechanisms through which the effect operates.

IOW, the science supports the notion that one should spend as much as you wish, because one really does derive more pleasure, based on this experience.
If anyone ever questions why you should spend so much on something and there's no science to support that, show em this article.

cheers,

AJ

 

[TheOctopus]

Bingo. I’m familiar with fMRI by the way, that was my job.

 

[Mike]

I’ve played sax for 40 years. Won awards. They’re hanging in my den. I can tell you, there are some wonderful saxophones and some real stinkers on the market today. Mine is a 1968 Selmer Mark VI, hand made in Paris. It’s only a few serial numbers off of David Sanborn’s. It has the tone I prefer. Is it the best? There is no best, it’s what suits your ear and your style of play. Have I played better? Yes, the new Yanigasawa AW037 had much better action, a more modern pitch and was much easier to play (“blow”), but it’s not my style. Comparing a modern Yanigasawa or Yamaha to a classic Selmer (especially a Selmer Balanced Action - like Paul Desmond played or Mark VI) is completely different.

As for cables, it’s one of the topics that drives me nuts. I get calls weekly from some cable company proclaiming their new cables to be the greatest thing since sliced bread and telling me it will beat anything I have today. Blah, blah, blah. It gets exhausting and has become somewhat comical. Just tour Munich and you will see a gazillion cable brands. Find the little Chinese lady by the front door on the main level and she will tell you all the manufacturers she makes cables for. It’s a long list. Want to make some Suncoast Audio cables for your customers? She has spools of different cables ready to be branded.

For me, cables DO MATTER. I chose my cable brands carefully. AudioQuest has a cable for every budget. Literally, EVERY SINGLE budget. They have a cable for everything. They have the widest selection I’ve ever seen. Their cables are super well made and dead nuts neutral pretty much. Never had to send one back for repairs either.

Shunyata works. It just works. They even have the measurements to show the NR technology at work. IT WORKS! Avantgarde’s like low noise floor and “meat on dem bones”. Shunyata checks both boxes. My system at home is covered with Shunyata.

MIT? Well, Magico likes MIT. Magico works great with MIT. I don’t know why, but you can hear it. It’s immediately noticeable. They sound more dynamic.

I recently added Analysis Plus because A. They sound great with MSB DAC’s and B. MSB really likes them for their DAC’s. So do I. I keep them focused on loaning to my MSB clients.

I frankly don’t care where anyone sits on the whole cable debate. I have friends who are happy with Home Depot outdoor lighting cable (true) and others who insist on the best from their favorite brand - buying the best Transparent, WW, whatever there is.

If anyone is a cable disbeliever (“they all sound the same”), I would invite them to the store for a simple demo we give. We take the Gryphon Diablo 300 (with DAC) and change ONE CABLE - the power cord. We will compare the stock cable to the AudioQuest Hurricane HC. The improvement is not subtle and the biggest disbelievers have been made into believers. One cable made that much improvement.

As for measurements, we can’t measure everything we can hear and that remains the rub. But let the science guys stick with their measurements. I’ll trust my ears.

If people are in the “my $50 cable is good enough” camp, good! They also won’t buy a turntable and be happy with their Sony or Oppo CD player as the perfect sound forever. Not going to waste my time trying to convince them either. Their loss, but probably just not their thing. Ignorance is bliss.

Hey, I’m the guy who bought a $99 bicycle from Costco 15 years ago. Still ride it to this day and see no point in getting anything better. My neighbor? He has a $10,000 racing bike he rides around the neighborhood. Happy for him. Not my thing.

 

[Mechnutt]

I agree. Our preconceived notions that something is more desirable and better because it is more expensive, up to and including hearing differences in a more expensive cable may very well be the explanation. The blindfold tests seem to confirm that fact, even when it comes to Stradivarius violins and professional ears. If one "expects" to hear a difference, it will be heard. When one does not involve the other senses and has no bias since it is not a purchase but an objective "blind" test, things become much more complex. But the main point is probably this, whether that cable made a difference or not, if one believes it did, it is all that matters to that individual. Illusion becomes indistinguishable from reality.

I have bought cables and cords expecting to hear a difference and did not. I have also bought cables not expecting to hear a difference and was pleasantly surprised to hear a difference. Expectation bias does not work for every one.

I know what I hear and I know what I don't. Cables can and do sound different but not in all instances. Amps, preamps and DAC's more so.

I trust my ears and brain.

 

[CPP]

I have bought cables and cords expecting to hear a difference and did not. I have also bought cables not expecting to hear a difference and was pleasantly surprised to hear a difference. Expectation bias does not work for every one.

I know what I hear and I know what I don't. Cables can and do sound different but not in all instances. Amps, preamps and DAC's more so.

I trust my ears and brain.

I trust my ears and brain

bingo

 

[tube-vds]

yes, a human being is not a robot. and hearing is complex. my hearing is pretty good, but for some things i have no explanation.

f.e:

yesterday you listened to your hifi system and were happy, it souned great and you could listen for hours. there was a connection between the music and your brain and senses etc. wow.

some days later you listen to exactly the same system and music and the sound is completly different. no connection. in fact it sucks. better switch of the power.

why?

"bad hifi day"? i had the same mood, no stress and was not more tired than some days before.

what has changed? my brains, my nerves, electric power - a change of the magnetic fields in the room? no idea.

 

[TheOctopus]

yes, a human being is not a robot. and hearing is complex. my hearing is pretty good, but for some things i have no explanation.

f.e:

yesterday you listened to your hifi system and were happy, it souned great and you could listen for hours. there was a connection between the music and your brain and senses etc. wow.

some days later you listen to exactly the same system and music and the sound is completly different. no connection. in fact it sucks. better switch of the power.

why?

"bad hifi day"? i had the same mood, no stress and was not more tired than some days before.

what has changed? my brains, my nerves, electric power - a change of the magnetic fields in the room? no idea.

We have precision instruments that go on supplying us with "reliable data" day after day, no matter what, or we'd never have achieved anything with precision and certainly would not have reached mars or the moon. The "same" electronic components seem to do just fine for intercontinental missiles, lasers, scanning electron microscopes, particle accelerators, precision medical devices, etc...All are consistent except when implemented in AUDIO, hence "bad hi-fi days". Magnetic fields, bad power, humidity, etc... Surely not all precision instruments rely on $10k power conditioners and surely such trivial things as a slight humidity change in a climate controlled environment should matter as far as electronics go! The slight change in sound wave propagation in relative humidity is very unlikely to cause any difference. It is a very slight change and irrelevant to the typical listening distances of an audio room.

Of course the examples of the trained and professional ears not being able to recognize a legendary instrument in a blind test and the fact that the article posted above clearly states that in the example of the wine tasting, elsewhere in the brain, the price of the wine changed and "overruled" the taste buds creating an illusion of a "different" and "better" wine when in fact it was the same....

None of that leads the audiophile to be suspicious of his own ears.... Not even the fact that human hearing fluctuates on a daily basis, some audiophiles have naturally "age related" hearing loss that is some -30 to -40 dB down and exhibits severe notch filtering at the same time. Nope, it can't be the ears!

So what I propose is to explore the possibility of the moon phases being responsible for "bad hifi days" Hey, anything is possible when it comes to "mystical audio".

 

[Mechnutt]

yes, a human being is not a robot. and hearing is complex. my hearing is pretty good, but for some things i have no explanation.

f.e:

yesterday you listened to your hifi system and were happy, it souned great and you could listen for hours. there was a connection between the music and your brain and senses etc. wow.

some days later you listen to exactly the same system and music and the sound is completly different. no connection. in fact it sucks. better switch of the power.

why?

"bad hifi day"? i had the same mood, no stress and was not more tired than some days before.

what has changed? my brains, my nerves, electric power - a change of the magnetic fields in the room? no idea.

Steve Guttenberg talked about this very thing about a year ago. It happens to me all the time. My son has also complained about this. I think that there is too much going on in our brain during those times. You can call it stress, distraction, mood or emotions but it definitely has an effect on our sensory organs.

Its just like when we have days that nothing, even your favorite foods do not taste good.

 

[TheOctopus]

Steve Guttenberg talked about this very thing about a year ago. It happens to me all the time. My son has also complained about this. I think that there is too much going on in our brain during those times. You can call it stress, distraction, mood or emotions but it definitely has an effect on our sensory organs.

Its just like when we have days that nothing, even your favorite foods do not taste good.

How does Steve Guttenberg get around those days while being a reviewer? Are there "the wrong time of the month" days for audio reviews then?

 

[AJ Soundfield]

what has changed? my brains, my nerves, electric power - a change of the magnetic fields in the room? no idea.

A glitch in the Matrix.

Ever sit listening, really enjoying tunes, edge the volume, up, up, till you're really tapping your feet or swaying to the symphony...
... then the phone rings or something else stops you, pauses for a minute or 5.
Then you sit back down and hit un-pause...wham! It sounds loud as heck. You scramble from the volume to turn it down. WTH, it could have been this loud before.
Except is was.
You're right. Despite belief, our brains are not static. They adapt and change to sounds and other sensory input continuously...and equally importantly, subconsciously.
That means you are not in conscious control of your biases, including expectation, even when you believe you are.
Btw, there is a whole chapter in Dr Tooles wonderful book about ...Adaptation. Great reading, along with the rest.

cheers,

AJ

 

[TheOctopus]

We do tend to take the hobby way too seriously sometimes. I think it does somewhat distract from the primary objective of the hobby of "simply enjoying music". Each budget and personal preference will obviously dictate as to how high one wants to take this whole thing but tempers do tend to flare up when an opposing view of that uber component, speaker or cable is encountered. That part of the hobby tends to get ugly... I somewhat blame the manufacturers for that by the way. Pseudo-science approach betrays the "logical audiophile" and only causes doubts, confusion and further stress. Not much can be done about it, they are in the business of selling us what is promised to be the ultimate answer to our ailments in the system. Refreshing when a manufacturer does not resort to such tactics and even more refreshing when audiophiles admit that our ears are not perfect, audio is not mysticism and opinions are purely subjective as is personal taste, hence no need to try to convince others of anything really. At the end of the day, it is still simply about enjoying music IMHO, the shiny boxes are nothing more than a tool and none of the biggest, best, shiniest and most expensive boxes can ever truly transport us to the place where the recording took place. Perhaps someday, but it won't have anything to do with audio

 

[AJ Soundfield]

How does Steve Guttenberg get around those days while being a reviewer?

Ganja?

 

[TheOctopus]

Ganja?

 

[Al M.]

As for measurements, we can’t measure everything we can hear and that remains the rub. But let the science guys stick with their measurements. I’ll trust my ears.

Being a scientist myself (albeit in an unrelated field, biochemistry), I agree that we can’t measure everything we can hear, and I trust my ears too. I would hope that most engineers also know that we can’t measure everything we can hear, or in many cases where we can, these are not the measurements actually performed (for starters, too many measurements just address static performance of components, e.g., with test tones, not the dynamic performance with music). But I guess some engineers think we have it all figured out, a way of thinking alien to a scientist. A real scientist knows how's that there is a lot we don't know -- that's what also drives the passion of science.

 

[Spock]

First of all I think that in the past, the ear of a musician and an audiophile do not look for the same thing. Regardless some musicians look hard for their identity kind of sound (the guitar and sound of David Gilmour are easily different from the guitar and sound of Mark Knopfler), they put the sound problems in the hands of the sound engineers. But with time and evolution, some artists began to have real concerns about the way their songs should sound at the end of the process. And some became audiophiles. And i´m sure a lot of more will came across this path if it wasn´t the internet and the fact of most young people are now listening in mp3 format, with some basic headphones when they walk or when they do something else. Even the record companies are now asking if it worth to spend 10.000 (dollars, euros, whatever) in a single microphone when the end customer does not care about sound quality. Yes, I think all the high end market is in danger. Like the cinema. A few days ago I read that in the future we will go the cinema like we go now to some show and we will pay much, much more then. So many things are endangered essentially because those who like them do not know how to care.

So what is an audiophile? Someone who looks for the excellence of sound reproduction based on an active listening. With time, yes, this can provide a more accurate ear. Even more than a musician? Well, there are examples of some musicians that did not hide their satisfaction and discovery when in contact with a great sound reproduction.

So, this is far from being all about placebo effect or pitfalls of our perception. Why do I waste time and a lot of work making my cables? Because there are amazing differences! :audiophile:

To be truth I don´t even understand how can be any doubts about the importance of cables when the signal comes across them. But what some “audiophiles” thinks is the same to me. More important is what a manufacturer think. Tell me the ones who "don´t believe" and I tell you they will never achieve the ultimate excellence. opcorn:

I´m sure that, with time, science will measure what someone of us are “listening” today.

Meanwhile, passion is the key!

To me, case closed. :Bow:

 

[AJ Soundfield]

Being a scientist myself (albeit in an unrelated field, biochemistry)
I agree that we can’t measure everything we can hear

I don't.
I'll explain. First, if it weren't obvious, I'm agnostic. Superstitous beliefs, not my bag. One of the first core engineering courses one must complete, is Logic. The above statement you made is a form of Wishful Thinking fallacy. Something is, because you wish it to be, not because of any evidence. It's very common!
Further, if I came into a Biochemist forum, claiming that Biochemists can't measure everything and are totally misguided using their scientific methods, based on my knowledge as a Lawyer (who sells Biochemical products), how would that fly?
Why do otherwise intelligent, educated folks in one field, think that makes them enough of an expert to argue electro-acoustic and perceptual science.? How much research and applicable knowledge outside their own fields..and in those fields, do they have?
It's pretty easy to tell in any discussion. Just imagine me trying to discuss Biochemistry, or Law.:happy:

I would hope that most engineers also know that we can’t measure everything we can hear

Name one thing, in acoustic fields captured by microphones, that can't be measured when reproducing said fields? Stereophonically, as in scientist/engineer Alan Blumleins creation? Do you honestly believe he had no idea how to measure what he created scientifically?
But let's suspend logic for a second and say, ok, there are these mystical forces/attribute Z in stereophonic reproduction unknown to science, but present in widget Y, not X.
Please explain how this this "Z" is designed, engineered and manufactured into Widget Y? How does that work?
The "designer" call the capacitor company and says I need 1000 capacitors with "Z" embedded. They say, WTF is "Z"?
Well, it can't be measured, its unknown to science or ultra-secret (which means it is known), but manufacture it in there anyway so audiophiles can hear it, but no one can measure it. This make sense to you?
And exactly how do audiophiles determine that "Z" is in the soundwaves/soundfield? Did they isolate it there some way?
If so, how/when, using what scientific method?
As I clearly showed in the Wine link, it's entirely possible for there to be no change for humans to sense change (taste in this case). Should they be measuring the wine to see what happened?
Or, is it possible that the human needs to be measured?
That "Z" doesn't reside in the soundfield, and thus it's a fools errand/wild goose chase to measure the soundfield, when "Z" is actually a human measurement (like the fMRIs).
*If* you claim that we don't know/can't measure everything yet about human , then yes, I fully agree. fMRIs are just scratching the surface.
If you claim "Z" lies in the soundwaves, that is a purely objective claim. Let's see the evidence .
"I heard it" doesn't count. People still hear Santa and dead relatives. That is only evidence of humanity, not Santa. We know what needs to be measured there.

Btw, "trust ears" is by definition, a blind/controlled test. That's all you can trust in a controlled test.
In an uncontrolled test, you are trusting your eyes, beliefs, etc, etc just as much, as I explained.
Non-blind/controlled "listening" is an "experience". You "experience" the DUT way beyond "ears" and "listening".
We do it every day.

cheers,

AJ

 

[Joe P]