The Audio High-End Has a Cadillac Problem

[mep]

I do not believe I posted anything above saying to the contrary. It obviously takes time to get situated in life and until disposable income becomes more readily available. I did not have an expensive system in my 20s either but I did build one in my very early 30s, as soon as I was able to scrape up enough to do so and this was with two college grads working full time in the health industry. My two sons are both Millennials. I put them both on the path to earn more than 6 figures a year but... Their lives are not any easier. My first four bedroom, 2400 sq ft house cost $202,000. That SAME house is now $590,000.

My son who is earning over 6 figures a year had to settle for a high end townhouse instead. He is also into music and is an audiophile because he grew up around my own systems and music. Let's just say he is NOT buying $8K power conditioners and $2k USB cables. Most of his friends outside of college and work colleagues are making do with much less in life. It is not easy out there and chances are, it will get even harder.

Serge-If your son is making a six figure salary and he can’t afford a home, he is obviously living in a state with ridiculously priced real estate. That’s a choice many people make for a variety of reasons. It doesn’t mean that people don’t make other choices and choose to live in a state where you can buy a much nicer and larger house for far less money.

 

[Mike]

There will be outliers. Florida is still a very unique place. No? You are booming, many of the stores elsewhere have closed long ago.

And that’s one of the topics for discussion. Along with:

Ecommerce
Online pricing
Audio culture in 2020


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[TheOctopus]

Serge-If your son is making a six figure salary and he can’t afford a home, he is obviously living in a state with ridiculously priced real estate. That’s a choice many people make for a variety of reasons. It doesn’t mean that people don’t make other choices and choose to live in a state where you can buy a much nicer and larger house for far less money.

He wants to live in a good school district now that he has a son of his own. I did the same for my kids and paid for their 6 plus years of college which is a small fortune these days. The single greatest thing a parent can do for the future of their kids (other than buying $10k of Bitcoin when it was under a dollar and is now at $20K per. I missed that one.) Our state is no where near the nutty house prices of others but is more expensive than some, obviously. It is what it is for the time being.

 

[TheOctopus]

By the way, to get anywhere in life, one either gets an education, succeeds at a business or wins the lottery. Well, good luck with the last one. Statistically, good luck with the 8 out 10 business models failing as well. So that almost always leaves us with the first. Education. I paid $12K a year in the 80's to attend a prestigious university in Philadelphia. My son's tuition cost me $60k a year some 25 years later. That similar/same education is now 500% more expensive.

That same house that I started out in is now 300% as much. Did salaries go up 300 or 500% since then? That's a big NO.

So when we talk about the future of high end audio, the numbers are not really adding up here. Then again high end audio was always a very small, niche market so it totally bypasses the reality and always has. I suppose even an RCA console to spin those new Living Stereo wonder records in living stereo was a significant investment for the average Joe in the 50s?

 

[TheOctopus]

So how much is that new Cadillac in the window anyways? The first BMW M3 I bought slightly preowned cost me under $30k. Now they are upwards of nearly $100k. :bonkers:

 

[Mr Peabody]

I suspect the's not much to worry about as we don't see brands falling away, and, in fact, seems to be more entering the market each year.

Brands are also becoming more flexible with offering more cutting edge tech and business models.

It does help to expose younger potential buyers to the products. Even if they don't buy right then. I had passion for musicand electronics as long as I remember. Went from the old one unit stereo, to receiver, constantly looking to upgrade which takes money. So it took me a lot of years t reach the system I have now. Once I'm hear I don't desire to downgrade.

If anything, we have a Chevrolet or VW problem. We could use more reasonably priced audio gear to allow for stepping up upgrades.

 

[Bruce]

Nicoff, I agree with your observations.

How long do you think a Tice Clock would last with today's forums and youtube?

Hey Octopussy, Easy on the rhetoric,mine got really offended !

and has refused to function----not that it ever did frankly

Bruce

 

[TheOctopus]

Hey Octopussy, Easy on the rhetoric,mine got really offended !

and has refused to function----not that it ever did frankly

Bruce

Bruce, Octopussy was a great James Bond Flick. Never in my life, at any point, of any of the madness, of the green cd markers, the black light cd mats, the suspending speaker cables in the air by fishing line and using bicycle tubes with pressure gauges as a vibration isolation device, have I or any of my crazy audiophile friends even considered a Tice Clock. I want to congratulate you on your ownership of a true relic and THE definitive symbol of audiophile nervosa.

 

[Bruce]

Bruce, Octopussy was a great James Bond Flick. Never in my life, at any point, of any of the madness, of the green cd markers, the black light cd mats, the suspending speaker cables in the air by fishing line and using bicycle tubes with pressure gauges as a vibration isolation device, have I or any of my crazy audiophile friends even considered a Tice Clock. I want to congratulate you on your ownership of a true relic and THE definitive symbol of audiophile nervosa.

Yoh Serge,

They don't know what they missed--when my third wife saw the Clock behind the Fridge--she said

Its that or me!

as you can see I chose the Clock

Bruce

 

[TheOctopus]

Yoh Serge,

They don't know what they missed--when my third wife saw the Clock behind the Fridge--she said

Its that or me!

as you can see I chose the Clock

Bruce

Bruce I was serious. That thing has to be a collector item now. Why was it behind the fridge? Power factor correction or did the beer taste better that way?

 

[nicoff]

Never heard of Tice Clock so I feel better. [emoji1787]

Today the WSJ says that 17% of dealers are willing to quit the brand and stop selling Cadillacs since they announced that they are ditching the ICE and going electric.
And all it was going to cost the dealers was $200k.
Think about it: give up a dealership instead of spending $200k to keep it.

PS. I think that the issue is not electric cars, but rather that dealers don’t see themselves making money supporting that brand. I am sure they would sell Tesla cars if they could.

View attachment About 150 U.S. Cadillac Dealers to Exit Brand, Rather Than Sell Electric Cars - .pdf

 

[UltraFast69]

Never heard of Tice Clock so I feel better. [emoji1787]

Today the WSJ says that 17% of dealers are willing to quit the brand and stop selling Cadillacs since they announced that they are ditching the ICE and going electric.
And all it was going to cost the dealers was $200k.
Think about it: give up a dealership instead of spending $200k to keep it.

PS. I think that the issue is not electric cars, but rather that dealers don’t see themselves making money supporting that brand. I am sure they would sell Tesla cars if they could.

View attachment 29103

Couple of months back I was at the dealer for some warranty work, they are a single brand dealer, meaning Cadillac only - they said they were going to combine with their other stores as they were losing as a stand alone dealer.


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[TheOctopus]

And perhaps Cadillac should not have tried to change its image at all. It has come a long way since Elvis drove one and the days of when it was popular to have a feather in your hat and lots of gold around the neck. By trying to attract the younger buyers who are clearly not buying enough of them, they may have lost and alienated their loyal clientele base.

 

[TheOctopus]

Also some brands inevitably met a dead end. No way to innovate and no way to keep going forward. Plymouth, Pontiac, Mercury, Oldsmobile and these are the more recent brands. I am surprised Buick has somehow survived to this day...

 

[gadawg]

So how much is that new Cadillac in the window anyways? The first BMW M3 I bought slightly preowned cost me under $30k. Now they are upwards of nearly $100k. :bonkers:

Not sure where $100k comes from ... the 2021 BMW M3 Competition starts at $72,800. More yes ... Not $100k by any means and BTW I upsized the house getting ready for retirement so I can have a room for everything I wanted!

That all said ... I sold hi end audio in Atlanta in the late 80's and early 90's and they were predicting the demise of Hi End Audio back then too. Didn't believe it then and don't now either. Will it change? Sure ... everything does but 30 years later I can still go audition and buy tube equipment, turntables and huge mega dollar speakers and I can still bring home tons of very expensive speaker cable that people will argue about endlessly just like they did way back then ... some of the brands are still there, others went away and many newer ones have emerged. It will continue ...

Cheers!

George

 

[Mikado463]

Not sure where $100k comes from ... the 2021 BMW M3 Competition starts at $72,800. More yes ... Not $100k by any means and BTW I upsized the house getting ready for retirement so I can have a room for everything I wanted!

I believe Serge said, 'upwards of 100k' . So with a starting price of over 72k, I'll bet 100k is within reach. Regardless given the hideous front end that thing wouldn't be in my garage !

 

[still-one]

Also some brands inevitably met a dead end. No way to innovate and no way to keep going forward. Plymouth, Pontiac, Mercury, Oldsmobile and these are the more recent brands. I am surprised Buick has somehow survived to this day...

One of the reasons that the Buick nameplate survived is the China market. In China Buick was remembered as a upscale nameplate and when GM and their JV partner SAIC began vehicle production in Shanghai in 1999 the Regal was the product.

 

[TheOctopus]

Not sure where $100k comes from ... the 2021 BMW M3 Competition starts at $72,800. More yes ... Not $100k by any means and BTW I upsized the house getting ready for retirement so I can have a room for everything I wanted!

That all said ... I sold hi end audio in Atlanta in the late 80's and early 90's and they were predicting the demise of Hi End Audio back then too. Didn't believe it then and don't now either. Will it change? Sure ... everything does but 30 years later I can still go audition and buy tube equipment, turntables and huge mega dollar speakers and I can still bring home tons of very expensive speaker cable that people will argue about endlessly just like they did way back then ... some of the brands are still there, others went away and many newer ones have emerged. It will continue ...

Cheers!

George

George, I've dabbled in all kinds of cars. It was one of my hobbies. Let's just say I usually did not lose money on most of my toys. So we are not talking about Buicks here... Of course the BMW is not the car you can make money on but there were exceptions.


As far as M3's I've owned every generation except the first E30.

I had a deposit on the M3 GTS some years back. Decide to pass on it as the market was flaky on it and none of the secondary market dealers wanted to commit to my car.

The MSRP was over $150K and they were fetching $180-190k. Only 150 units were made. So that was quite a premium for an M3.

The 2021 M4 Competition, when loaded up with goodies such as carbon seats, carbon brakes, carbon interior and exterior packages, the MSRP is $103,000. You can build one yourself https://www.bmwusa.com/

Congratulations on upsizing for your "retirement" residence. Makes sense to be able to fit all the toys one ever wanted in there.

As I already mentioned above, the baby boomers hold over 80% of wealth and Millennials hold 3%. So unless the Boomers checking out for that high rise in sky leave a generous will to their kids and grandkids before they blow all their money on Margaritas and Viagra, it will be difficult to peddle $80k DACs and $100k speakers

 

[gadawg]

As I already mentioned above, the baby boomers hold over 80% of wealth and Millennials hold 3%. So unless the Boomers checking out for that high rise in sky leave a generous will to their kids and grandkids before they blow all their money on Margaritas and Viagra, it will be difficult to peddle $80k DACs and $100k speakers

And maybe the future doesn't have $80k DACS in it and maybe it does ... when we are all gone by default today's younger generations will hold all of the wealth then we'll see what they do with it ... My guess is like all previous generations ... when they get older and are financially stable they will discover what a audio system can deliver compared to their headphones and jump in. This generation may get a late start and high end will certainly change ... but I have a feeling they will join the party at some point and in 30 more years they will still be arguing about cables!

George

 

[TheOctopus]

As I already mentioned above, the baby boomers hold over 80% of wealth and Millennials hold 3%. So unless the Boomers checking out for that high rise in sky leave a generous will to their kids and grandkids before they blow all their money on Margaritas and Viagra, it will be difficult to peddle $80k DACs and $100k speakers[/QUOTE]

And maybe the future doesn't have $80k DACS in it and maybe it does ... when we are all gone by default today's younger generations will hold all of the wealth then we'll see what they do with it ... My guess is like all previous generations ... when they get older and are financially stable they will discover what a audio system can deliver compared to their headphones and jump in. This generation may get a late start and high end will certainly change ... but I have a feeling they will join the party at some point and in 30 more years they will still be arguing about cables!

George[/QUOTE]




George, they are very much aware of high end audio already. I've spent quite a bit of time participating in forums what were brimming with Millennials and younger headphone enthusiasts. Let's just say in todays world of youtube, instagram and other internet forums, they are very much in the know. Guess what that one little problem is that stands between them and high end audio that we like to discuss here...