The “friendliest audio forum”?

[Shadowfax]

What I really dislike about Reviewer, Reviews, and Demos is that Dianna Krall in now way demonstrates what any given system can do with more than one instrument and some vocals. Rarely do I hear any demos or reviewer using music I actually listen to so most are useless to me.

 

[mep]

A substantial minority of consumers lack confidence in their own decisions. back in the day when I hung out with my audio dealer friends on Saturdays, they'd joke about and bet who was going to walk into the store asking about some new Class A rated component in the latest Stereophile. Never mind that the store had other brands/gear that would readily match or beat what Stereophile was touting. Human nature is a funny thing, the lemming mindset is everywhere.

I hear you Rob. Some people don't have any high-end audio stores where they live and they have to take a leap of faith. But this reality is different than the example you cited above.

 

[Randy Myers]

Ian Anderson at the Jethro Tull concert in Chicago at the International Amphitheater (1971) referred to the venue as “the worst acoustical hole in northern America”. I guess he didn’t like it.

The best I have been to a concert in (actually a few different ones) is the Saratoga Performing Arts Center. It was designed for acoustics. I saw Pat Benatar there, but the best was Asia, first tour when Greg Lake was doing vocals. Best sounding concert ever.

Another is the Santa Barbara Bowl. Saw a couple concerts there; Lord was pretty amazing actually.

Back in the day, the Broome County Arena in Binghamton. It is very small, only about 6k to 7K, but it was a warmup venue where bands would do their full show on the way to Madison Square Garden, usually the next day. Heart's tour supporting their first album was amazing... but also saw Alice Cooper, Van Halen, Styx, Uriah Heep, Genesis, etc., etc. there. All in their prime and getting ready for NY the next day!

 

[Randy Myers]

I hear you Rob. Some people don't have any high-end audio stores where they live and they have to take a leap of faith. But this reality is different than the example you cited above.

Yup, definitely an issue for me. You would think Wichita would be large enough to support a decent audio store, but none here. Some decent venues for shows actually. We saw Manheim Steamroller doing their Christmas show this year, which was fantastic. You have to drive to Kansas City or Oklahoma City to find any audio stores. The incredible record retailor Acoustic Sounds is even much closer (only about 1.5 hours north of us).

 

[mep]

Yup, definitely an issue for me. You would think Wichita would be large enough to support a decent audio store, but none here. Some decent venues for shows actually. We saw Manheim Steamroller doing their Christmas show this year, which was fantastic. You have to drive to Kansas City or Oklahoma City to find any audio stores. The incredible record retailor Acoustic Sounds is even much closer (only about 1.5 hours north of us).

I'm in the same boat here Randy.

 

[Mike]

A substantial minority of consumers lack confidence in their own decisions. back in the day when I hung out with my audio dealer friends on Saturdays, they'd joke about and bet who was going to walk into the store asking about some new Class A rated component in the latest Stereophile. Never mind that the store had other brands/gear that would readily match or beat what Stereophile was touting. Human nature is a funny thing, the lemming mindset is everywhere.

That happened regularly before Covid. Since Covid? Zero times.

 

[Kramer64]

I'm in the same boat. No real audio stores here, which is surprising. There is one a couple hours away, otherwise 3+ hours. So, if you are component shopping and interested in 3 or 4 brands, its difficult.

 

[Mike]

The discussion I wanted to have on video was around how consumers research and ultimately buy today. The other is around the complete disconnect between media and the buying public. The question that needs to be asked: how can we help each other?

Brands need the audience of the media (print, digital, video). The media would welcome revenue I’m sure. Why can we not separate “reviews” from “paid promotion”? Even put it into a different name if you want. “Audio Adventures” by XYZ. Put giant banners everywhere that this is paid promotion. It gives the media revenue and the brand exposure. A win-win. This endless cat and mouse game isn’t good for either party.

We certainly have a lot of men in this business, but not a lot of businessmen in this business.

 

[Kramer64]

Mike, I commend you for thinking this way. For those of us who don't live near a decent number of stores, its a real problem. That's why I started attending shows and actually bought a pair of speakers that were on demo at a show. I think you can get a handle on speakers at a show, electronics are harder. I've bought electronics just on brand rep and dealer's recommendation, its worked out, but far from ideal and probably not very smart.

I'm shopping for a particular component now and have maybe 4 or 5 choices in my mind. Visited one dealer who was a direct flight away and at least could hear a couple of choices swapped out in the same system, but of course its not my system. For me, its frustrating because when you are talking about dropping 40-50k or more, you want to get it right. If, for example, I had a way to audition 3 or 4 of my choices in my home back to back I'd guarantee i would buy one of them and would put down money up front to secure the deal, but of course no single dealer will carry those brands. I have sort of an unformed thought about high end dealers having "speaker" day or DAC day, etc., where they come together to feature those components and have a fly in for a relatively small number of serious buyers ready to write a check-not tire kickers-not sure if something like that is feasible.

In terms of research, I read the mags, follow the forums, etc. and attend a show when I can. The publications provide useful basic information, but the subjective opinions are of almost no use, which is frustrating because they could be-comparative reviews. As I said, Ive visited a dealer or two with a specific component in mind, but honestly I hate to put them to a lot of trouble, and wouldn't unless I was seriously considering buying. I like the dealer I've bought most of my stuff from very much, but with almost any dealer you run into brand limitations at some point. You reach that fork in the road where you must decide to buy what your dealer carries because of the relationship even if its not what you want. Not the best place to be.

So, I think I've built a pretty good system-it brings me a lot of joy-but I might have done better if I had a way to be a smarter consumer.

I doubt this rambling post is helpful but its an important discussion and happy to talk about it any time.

 

[mep]

The discussion I wanted to have on video was around how consumers research and ultimately buy today. The other is around the complete disconnect between media and the buying public. The question that needs to be asked: how can we help each other?

Brands need the audience of the media (print, digital, video). The media would welcome revenue I’m sure. Why can we not separate “reviews” from “paid promotion”? Even put it into a different name if you want. “Audio Adventures” by XYZ. Put giant banners everywhere that this is paid promotion. It gives the media revenue and the brand exposure. A win-win. This endless cat and mouse game isn’t good for either party.

We certainly have a lot of men in this business, but not a lot of businessmen in this business.

The common denominator of how audiophiles research and buy gear is the internet. Audio forums, audio publications, audio manufacturers and audio dealers all have internet presences.

 

[Hear Here]

The best I have been to a concert in (actually a few different ones) is the Saratoga Performing Arts Center. It was designed for acoustics. I saw Pat Benatar there, but the best was Asia, first tour when Greg Lake was doing vocals. Best sounding concert ever.

Another is the Santa Barbara Bowl. Saw a couple concerts there; Lord was pretty amazing actually.

Back in the day, the Broome County Arena in Binghamton. It is very small, only about 6k to 7K, but it was a warmup venue where bands would do their full show on the way to Madison Square Garden, usually the next day. Heart's tour supporting their first album was amazing... but also saw Alice Cooper, Van Halen, Styx, Uriah Heep, Genesis, etc., etc. there. All in their prime and getting ready for NY the next day!

I've just returned home from a live concert and what a joy it is to listen to real musical instruments rather than paper cones being pushed around by coils in magnetic fields! No microhones, no amplifiers and no speakers - just wood, brass, strings and all the other materials used to build 100 musical instruments - and the people to play these instruments so exquisitely.

The best hi-fi is pretty convincing though, particularly when you look at a 100-piece orchestra and ask yourself "how can 6 or 8 speaker cones possibly replicate this?"

 

[Mr Peabody]

The common denominator of how audiophiles research and buy gear is the internet. Audio forums, audio publications, audio manufacturers and audio dealers all have internet presences.

It is the internet. I'm on this audio page where most people have fairly basic systems, not expensive. I think nearly all of them own Wiim. One or two people bought one says it's great so that's the one everyone buys based on some guy's recommendation. I suspect wher and why the "schill" model came about. This is also why forums lie ASR is such a detriment. Tell everyone all streamers sound the same and there you go. I try not to argue anymore but encourage the person to try for themselves. This goes for all things not just streamers, cables, DAC's etc.

I like reviews they typically give more information than you get from the product's website. Hopefully the writer compares the unit to something similar.

I personally find out about new products from forums/pages. I like several brands on FB so I will see their posts in my feed. There's a couple online magazines I read.

 

[Mike]

Mike, I commend you for thinking this way. For those of us who don't live near a decent number of stores, its a real problem. That's why I started attending shows and actually bought a pair of speakers that were on demo at a show. I think you can get a handle on speakers at a show, electronics are harder. I've bought electronics just on brand rep and dealer's recommendation, its worked out, but far from ideal and probably not very smart.

I'm shopping for a particular component now and have maybe 4 or 5 choices in my mind. Visited one dealer who was a direct flight away and at least could hear a couple of choices swapped out in the same system, but of course its not my system. For me, its frustrating because when you are talking about dropping 40-50k or more, you want to get it right. If, for example, I had a way to audition 3 or 4 of my choices in my home back to back I'd guarantee i would buy one of them and would put down money up front to secure the deal, but of course no single dealer will carry those brands. I have sort of an unformed thought about high end dealers having "speaker" day or DAC day, etc., where they come together to feature those components and have a fly in for a relatively small number of serious buyers ready to write a check-not tire kickers-not sure if something like that is feasible.

In terms of research, I read the mags, follow the forums, etc. and attend a show when I can. The publications provide useful basic information, but the subjective opinions are of almost no use, which is frustrating because they could be-comparative reviews. As I said, Ive visited a dealer or two with a specific component in mind, but honestly I hate to put them to a lot of trouble, and wouldn't unless I was seriously considering buying. I like the dealer I've bought most of my stuff from very much, but with almost any dealer you run into brand limitations at some point. You reach that fork in the road where you must decide to buy what your dealer carries because of the relationship even if its not what you want. Not the best place to be.

So, I think I've built a pretty good system-it brings me a lot of joy-but I might have done better if I had a way to be a smarter consumer.

I doubt this rambling post is helpful but its an important discussion and happy to talk about it any time.

Thank you!

 

[mep]

It is the internet. I'm on this audio page where most people have fairly basic systems, not expensive. I think nearly all of them own Wiim. One or two people bought one says it's great so that's the one everyone buys based on some guy's recommendation. I suspect wher and why the "schill" model came about. This is also why forums lie ASR is such a detriment. Tell everyone all streamers sound the same and there you go. I try not to argue anymore but encourage the person to try for themselves. This goes for all things not just streamers, cables, DAC's etc.

I like reviews they typically give more information than you get from the product's website. Hopefully the writer compares the unit to something similar.

I personally find out about new products from forums/pages. I like several brands on FB so I will see their posts in my feed. There's a couple online magazines I read.

Lots of people love comparative reviews, but they don't understand it's hard to pull that off. Chances are most reviewers won't have another piece of gear in their system at the same price point they can compare to the piece of gear that is coming in for review.

So what's next? Are you going to contact another company that makes a competing piece of gear at roughly the same price point and ask them to send it to you so you can compare it to the piece of gear you are going to review? Oh, and you are not going to review the gear they send you, it will only be used in the review to describe how it compares to the gear you are actually reviewing.

The bigger, heavier, and more expensive the gear is complicates the process even further.

 

[W9TR]

The combination of subjective impressions and objective performance that I find valuable is becoming increasingly hard to find. Reviewers of any stripe on any ‘channel’ need to have years of available content that I can review and compare to my personal experience with the gear in question. These subjective reviews need to be backed up by measurements performed to industry standards by competent technicians. JA’s Stereophile speaker reviews are a good example. My tastes are different from his but I can find speakers I like based on his combination of subjective impressions and objective performance measurements.

 

[mep]

The combination of subjective impressions and objective performance that I find valuable is becoming increasingly hard to find. Reviewers of any stripe on any ‘channel’ need to have years of available content that I can review and compare to my personal experience with the gear in question. These subjective reviews need to be backed up by measurements performed to industry standards by competent technicians. JA’s Stereophile speaker reviews are a good example. My tastes are different from his but I can find speakers I like based on his combination of subjective impressions and objective performance measurements.

It would be great if all audio mags and ezines had a EE or an electronics tech on staff and measured all gear coming in for review and published the results. I think JA does a great job for Stereophile and I have spoken highly of him for years. Stereophile is lucky to have JA. I wonder if Stereophile will replace JA when he retires?

It's expensive to have an EE on staff to take measurements of all the gear that comes in for the review, and so is the gear needed to take the measurements. Add in the costs of having a calibration program for your test gear to ensure your measurements are accurate.

There is a reason why there are very few print or ezines audio publications in the U.S. that have that capability.

 

[Mr Peabody]

Lots of people love comparative reviews, but they don't understand it's hard to pull that off. Chances are most reviewers won't have another piece of gear in their system at the same price point they can compare to the piece of gear that is coming in for review.

So what's next? Are you going to contact another company that makes a competing piece of gear at roughly the same price point and ask them to send it to you so you can compare it to the piece of gear you are going to review? Oh, and you are not going to review the gear they send you, it will only be used in the review to describe how it compares to the gear you are actually reviewing.

The bigger, heavier, and more expensive the gear is complicates the process even further.

Come on man get your ass in the game. Most reviewers have gear just sitting around waiting for a turn. Larry Green usually gets the Levinson stuff to review he has past amps to compare to plus a vast knowledge of the prior amps he reviewed. I'm sure he's not the only one with experience(s).

 

[mep]

Come on man get your ass in the game. Most reviewers have gear just sitting around waiting for a turn. Larry Green usually gets the Levinson stuff to review he has past amps to compare to plus a vast knowledge of the prior amps he reviewed. I'm sure he's not the only one with experience(s).

I guess I'm not "most reviewers." I don't have much gear laying around. Some reviewers do have gear on long term loan, but I don't. I own everything in my system and that's the way I like it.

I have an SP-10 MKII table and an SME 312S tonearm in my room that I have owned for many years that is currently in my room, but not part of my system. I also have a PS Audio DSJ DAC I purchased new from PS Audio that I replaced with the HiFi Rose 150B that is now parked next to my SP-10 MKII table. That's it for gear I have laying around.

At the time I had the JC1+ monoblock amps in for review, I did have the JC5 stereo amp that I owned. I did talk about the differences I heard between the JC1+ amps and the JC5 in the review. After I purchased the JC1+ amps, I sold my JC5.

 

[W9TR]

It would be great if all audio mags and ezines had a EE or an electronics tech on staff and measured all gear coming in for review and published the results. I think JA does a great job for Stereophile and I have spoken highly of him for years. Stereophile is lucky to have JA. I wonder if Stereophile will replace JA when he retires?

It's expensive to have an EE on staff to take measurements of all the gear that comes in for the review, and so is the gear needed to take the measurements. Add in the costs of having a calibration program for your test gear to ensure your measurements are accurate.

There is a reason why there are very few print or ezines audio publications in the U.S. that have that capability.

I’ve got an example of another reviewer who has made a significant investment in measurement tools. I’m building a new theater, 9.4.6 Dolby Atmos, etc. 6 height speakers and 6 surround speakers. Cost becomes an issue with so many channels. The main L,C,R speakers and amps I already have. Where to find objective and subjective info?

Erin’s Audio Corner. Erin uses the $100k Klippel near field scanner which is a state of the art speaker measurement tool. Being near field it is not affected by the room acoustics. He couples this with even-handed subjective reviews.

So I put him to the test. I arranged a morning at our local B&M store and auditioned half a dozen bookshelf speakers that were suitable for surround use in the new theater. The price range was less than $3000 a pair. Of the six speakers I listened to, there were two models that I thought sounded excellent and matched the timbre of my mains. I did not look at any of Erin’s reviews prior to my listening test. The winners: KEF Q1 Meta for the height speakers and KEF Q Concerta Meta for the surrounds. I bought 3 pairs of each model.

Then I looked at Erin’s reviews for the speakers I auditioned. Both KEF models came out on top in his objective and subjective reviews.

Now I have two reviewers I can use to narrow my speaker choices. In person listening follows, and that’s a fraught experience for discussion in another thread.

 

[mep]

I’ve got an example of another reviewer who has made a significant investment in measurement tools. I’m building a new theater, 9.4.6 Dolby Atmos, etc. 6 height speakers and 6 surround speakers. Cost becomes an issue with so many channels. The main L,C,R speakers and amps I already have. Where to find objective and subjective info?

Erin’s Audio Corner. Erin uses the $100k Klippel near field scanner which is a state of the art speaker measurement tool. Being near field it is not affected by the room acoustics. He couples this with even-handed subjective reviews.

So I put him to the test. I arranged a morning at our local B&M store and auditioned half a dozen bookshelf speakers that were suitable for surround use in the new theater. The price range was less than $3000 a pair. Of the six speakers I listened to, there were two models that I thought sounded excellent and matched the timbre of my mains. I did not look at any of Erin’s reviews prior to my listening test. The winners: KEF Q1 Meta for the height speakers and KEF Q Concerta Meta for the surrounds. I bought 3 pairs of each model.

Then I looked at Erin’s reviews for the speakers I auditioned. Both KEF models came out on top in his objective and subjective reviews.

Now I have two reviewers I can use to narrow my speaker choices. In person listening follows, and that’s a fraught experience for discussion in another thread.

I'm glad that worked out for you. I have a home theater system that is on the main floor of my house which is removed from my dedicated stereo room. It's not as complex or expensive as yours.

My home theater system is a 7.2 system. I only have two Dolby Atmos height speakers that sit on top of my floor standing left and right channel speakers. All of my speakers and subs are Klipsch and I couldn't be happier with how my home theater sounds. My Marantz Cinema 40 powers all the speakers except the subs which have their own amps built in.