Switched to Class D or get left behind?

I just wanted to mention that even if someone does not believe in measurements as the major determining factor in audio purchases, it does not mean that we do not read specifications. Obviously, the impedance of a speaker is important as is the clipping range of an amplifier. It simply means, in my view, that we do not believe that measurements alone can determine the sound signature of the component.

As an example, my Harbeth speakers are rated at a 6ohm nominal resistance. My McIntosh has multiple connection for speaker impedance. I have compared and they distinctly sound better, to my ears, using the 4ohm versus 8ohm connections. The McIntosh tech told me that the amplifier will not have an issue using either so let the sound comparisons be my guide.
 
I just wanted to mention that even if someone does not believe in measurements as the major determining factor in audio purchases, it does not mean that we do not read specifications.
Specifications aren't the same as measurements. The Alexx V is 4 ohm nominal spec. 1-2 measured. The vast majority of hi end components have zero measurements and fantasy world only an audiophile would believe "specs", one of the worst being speaker sensitivity.
Obviously, the impedance of a speaker is important as is the clipping range of an amplifier. It simply means, in my view, that we do not believe that measurements alone can determine the sound signature of the component.
That is indeed a belief, sans evidence and logic. How did the mystery unmeasurable "sound signature" get discovered, designed, engineered and manufactured into the widget? 😊
As an example, my Harbeth speakers are rated at a 6ohm nominal resistance. My McIntosh has multiple connection for speaker impedance. I have compared and they distinctly sound better, to my ears, using the 4ohm versus 8ohm connections. The McIntosh tech told me that the amplifier will not have an issue using either so let the sound comparisons be my guide.
Right, non pathological speakers and amps will play nice. How did either manufacturer know? Oh yeah, they both measure :cool:
 
Specifications aren't the same as measurements. The Alexx V is 4 ohm nominal spec. 1-2 measured. The vast majority of hi end components have zero measurements and fantasy world only an audiophile would believe "specs", one of the worst being speaker sensitivity.

That is indeed a belief, sans evidence and logic. How did the mystery unmeasurable "sound signature" get discovered, designed, engineered and manufactured into the widget? 😊

Right, non pathological speakers and amps will play nice. How did either manufacturer know? Oh yeah, they both measure :cool:
Thank you so much for clarifying everything for me AJ. So much appreciated, I mean after being into audio for over 50 years, how could I be so blind... (remove tongue from cheek).
 
You are making a point that I believe I have tried to make several times. Yes, there are folks who can and will buy the ultra-end of audio gear. But I also believe a vast majority of the market is the young couple in a condo who enjoy music but can't or do not want to afford crazy levels. I also believe that both manufactures, and especially magazines are missing the target by emphasizing the ultra hi end and mainly as exclusion of entry level. The future audio enthusiast will come from the entry level for the most part. The smartest companies realize this. This is just my opinion, I expect in a forum such as this many will disagree. But I say in total confidence it has for the most part always been this way and today I it is even more so.
It's not just your opinion, Randy. In well over 90% of the "professional" Youtube videos that I've seen from the audio shows, I notice two things missing from the room:

1) Young people.
2) Entry-level equipment.

It would probably be a good idea for us as fans to share and promote:

1) Credible Youtube reviewers who cover entry-level to modest equipment as well as the high end.
2) The importance of establishing a relationship with a dealer or two where you can hear the products for yourself.
 
It's not just your opinion, Randy. In well over 90% of the "professional" Youtube videos that I've seen from the audio shows, I notice two things missing from the room:

1) Young people.
2) Entry-level equipment.

It would probably be a good idea for us as fans to share and promote:

1) Credible Youtube reviewers who cover entry-level to modest equipment as well as the high end.
2) The importance of establishing a relationship with a dealer or two where you can hear the products for yourself.
Exactly my point. Most shows I have attended appear to showcase all of each company latest and greatest to an exclusion of gear that 99% of potential customers could possibly afford. Sure, show some or all of your best, but also showcase gear that new customers might actually consider purchasing. Otherwise, the show is nothing more than a gallery... like who is going to actually be able to buy that Michelangelo anyway?
 
It's not just your opinion, Randy. In well over 90% of the "professional" Youtube videos that I've seen from the audio shows, I notice two things missing from the room:

1) Young people.
2) Entry-level equipment.
It's not for a lack of trying, believe me. We go all out for both....but we can't dictate what exhibitors display. When you spend $8k for room, plane tickets, rental car, meals, etc, etc, you'd have to sell an awful lot of $100 dacs for it to remotely make sense. Chicken egg scenario. Ironically when brands like Vantoo did exhibit, they sold every single thing they brought. yet didn't return. The dilemma
 
It's not just your opinion, Randy. In well over 90% of the "professional" Youtube videos that I've seen from the audio shows, I notice two things missing from the room:

1) Young people.
2) Entry-level equipment.

It would probably be a good idea for us as fans to share and promote:

1) Credible Youtube reviewers who cover entry-level to modest equipment as well as the high end.
2) The importance of establishing a relationship with a dealer or two where you can hear the products for yourself.
Hello my friend - I respectfully disagree.

A clear vast majority of YT videos are on nothing but entry level cheap Fio, Eversolo, and the rest. We even have on trying to be a reviewer new on this forum who only covers entry level stuff.
 
It's not just your opinion, Randy. In well over 90% of the "professional" Youtube videos that I've seen from the audio shows, I notice two things missing from the room:

1) Young people.
2) Entry-level equipment.

It would probably be a good idea for us as fans to share and promote:

1) Credible Youtube reviewers who cover entry-level to modest equipment as well as the high end.
2) The importance of establishing a relationship with a dealer or two where you can hear the products for yourself.
The one huge problem in today's market is that there are few dealers available to much of the consumers. Therefore, listening and comparing, especially with the advice of a trusted advisor, is next to impossible. Back in my younger days there was multiple dealers in most every even smaller city. In Syracuse we had 4 dealers along the Erie Blvd strip. Even in Binghamton we had three dealers (even more when you consider the small sell out of their homes advisors which there used to be in most cities). Not so any more.

Even in a city of 700,000 people, I have to drive at least 3.5 hours to find a store to look, feel, and listen to gear. Yes, there are online stores, but how exactly does that help in true comparisons?

The industry as a whole has become very non-inclusive for young just starting out music fans. The opinion that audiophile gear is exclusively for the millionaire (billionaire) is definitely real and it is damaging our hobby and its future in dramatic ways.
 
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Btw, while I was kidding above, the Gryphon and Dartzeel being very rare birds, my friend with Mr Ps JBLs does have a stereo Dartzeel (108?), so I could have done such a test. I just see no point in it.
You lied about the compare? I let out a big sigh when I read this. Bummed. Seriously.

I compared a very good class D to my Dartzeel 108 model 1. Very old model. Not able to update to model 2. I could not tell them apart. It was.loaned to me so I returned it. Later a friend brought a tube amp over that absolutely destroyed my Dartzeel. $14,500. I bought the tube amp on the spot.

I am bummed as I am biamping and wanted to try a multichannel amp like the Primare to have all the same amps to my drivers. If a Primare sounds like the other class D I tried, I am not that interested.

And I am again of the belief that class D only goes so far. I believe Mike Lavigne when he says his 468 brought more to the table than his 108V2 and his 458. My Class D topped out at a 108V1. Very good, but not elite sound. Fantastic for the money if you like a SS sound.

I now use a KT88PP on my woofers/midrange through a passive crossover and a SET45 direct coupled to a horn with a Sublime filtering before the amp.

Every time I insert my Musical Fidelity A3cr, I think, mmaaaa. Ok. Not anywhere near as good as my tubes. The tubes have far better bass response in that a stand up or cello sound as such.
 
I should have replaced "professional" with "legacy".
And that is why stores went away. You don't need a store, and sales guys can't make money on that gear. I own a Fosi. Sounds like shit compared to any of my normal amps. Normal being a Musical Fidelity A3cr, Audion Black Shadow 845, Found Music Blade KT88PP, Bottlehead SET45.

FOSI is fantastic in my guest house pusing some Bose. My wife has no problem connecting wifi with her laptop and playing music when she wants. But its far far far from good. And the thought of saying great is a laugh. Its adaquit. End of review.
 
Jason is using them on his Popori speakers. That's a good speaker.
Very easy to drive too. We were using one of the more entry level versions at AXPONA this year and it was rated 92dB which is pretty impressive for a panel speaker. Panel speakers are measured the same way all other speakers are: 2.83Volts at one meter. But with the microphone that close, a lot of the output of the speaker is not picked up. So functionally in the room to know what that 92dB figure means you have to add 6dB because if you are further back, the full output of the speaker can be experienced.

That's 98dB! We did not need the 200 Watts our amps were able to put out into that load. We could have easily used a 50 Watt amp and still had power left over. Their bigger speakers are rated as high as 96 dB, putting them functionally at 102dB!
That is indeed a belief, sans evidence and logic. How did the mystery unmeasurable "sound signature" get discovered, designed, engineered and manufactured into the widget?
The way that belief came around is because incomplete measurements have been used for over 60 years but presented as if there was nothing else to know. THD is a great example; if its high enough its also audible but we've been told for decades that it is not. Its not a useful measurement without knowing the circuit's distortion spectrum.

In that regard audiophiles have been lied to for so long they don't even think about it. They have to take the equipment home and play it on their own system to know, no matter what someone told them or what they read somewhere...

[The Party (the measurement camp) told you to reject the evidence of your eyes and ears. It was their final, most essential command.] other than the bit in parenthesis, George Orwell, 1984.

We all know that ears use harmonics to tell the difference between sounds- that is how we know the difference between a trumpet and a clarinet. We also know that the ear is considerably more sensitive to higher ordered harmonics as it uses them to sense sound pressure (give a +120dB range, 'keenly' sensitive seems a better descriptor).

All humans use the same hearing perceptual rules; this is what made VU meters practical.

So when you add harmonics to a given signal, you alter how it sounds. The question is how much! SETs have that ever loving 'warmth' for which they are so well known. That's caused by the audible yet innocuous 2nd harmonic. This has been well known for well over 80 years and isn't rocket science (instead is music science). A Purifi module OTOH really should have no perceptible signature at all. IMO the reason people say they hear something in them they don't like is poor input buffer design and execution and poor power supplies. Also IMO if that is true its a really telling statement about how many bad designs are out there- how can you screw up an input buffer that badly? - but here we are.

Once you understand that the different sound signatures of different amplifiers is a combination of bandwidth, output impedance and mostly the distortion signature of the amp then you have the answer to your widget question. If the amplifier has an unpleasant distortion signature it will be an unpleasant amp to listen to even if its THD is low, due to the ear's sensitivity to higher ordered harmonics, which are assigned the value of 'harsh and bright'.
 
What do you mean. Are the distortions so low, there is little harmonic content? Wouldn't that make it less musical and more clinical.
The Purifi modules I've seen have a benign distortion signature, similar to ours in that the dominant distortion product is the 2nd and 3rd harmonic and almost none of anything else. But its also about -130dB or more.

'Clinical' is, IME, low THD but what distortion is present is unmasked higher orders. So the amp has a slightly bright, slightly harsh quality. This might be brought on by distortion rising with frequency which can cause those higher orders to be unmasked.

SETs have the highest amount of higher ordered harmonics of any amplifiers made. But because the 2nd and 3rd harmonics are so prodigious compared to the higher orders, those higher orders are masked by the lower orders.

That isn't to say an amp with a Purifi module might not be clinical. From what I've read online I suspect some are. But I don' think its the fault of the module so much as poor input buffer design and/or a poor power supply. We side stepped that mess in our class D by building our buffer into our module and making sure we had a robust power supply.
 
The way that belief came around is because incomplete measurements have been used for over 60 years but presented as if there was nothing else to know. THD is a great example
I don't recall that from engineering school. Citation? Who claimed and published that as fact??
Once you understand that the different sound signatures of different amplifiers is a combination of bandwidth, output impedance and mostly the distortion signature of the amp then you have the answer to your widget question. If the amplifier has an unpleasant distortion signature it will be an unpleasant amp to listen to even if its THD is low, due to the ear's sensitivity to higher ordered harmonics, which are assigned the value of 'harsh and bright'.
Right, so no mystery at all. In fact, exactly what Carver did in his challenge 4 decades ago. Measurements absolutely do matter. Thanks for agreeing.
Ralph, if you're ever at FLAX, stop by my room and instead of banter, I will demonstrate my entire knowledge of soundfields and binaural hearing ;-).
 
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