Switched to Class D or get left behind?

[Kingrex]

Me. But I'd be happy to look at evidence to the contrary. You know the Alex is a 1-2ohm pathological case load, no?
Or is that a requirement for a gotcha??


Cool story bro. A bit fuzzy on the details though. Especially the middle part. What "500w D plate" driving what 12 maybe 15 sub?

Ever heard of Wishful Thinking Fallacy?

Its hard to see. Tower speakers driven by Paragon 5 channel class AB 100.watt each anp. 1 paragon per speaker. Each driver gets a amp channel.

Subs also by Bob. He prefers his subs over SVS18S when he uses his Krell.

All drivers use DSP to cross them over. I think he is using Dayton DSP 408 crossovers.
And, he uses a BACCH for crosstalk cancelation. And to measure what is going on in the room, then to adjust the DSP accordingly.
He says he has it dialed enough the BACCH ORC is not really heard when engaged. So he does not use it.
Point being, he has a hard time integrating the subs to the mains if he uses a 500 watt class D plate amp. Hie Krell works best.

 

[atmasphere]

All you are saying there are cheap chips and expensive chips.

Uh, FWIW Dept.: class D amps that use modules don't use a 'chip' like the less expensive class D amps (like Fosi, Topping and so on, which tend to use TI class D integrated ICs) do.

Modules are composed of various chips like comparitor chips (although IIRC, the original UcD did that function with discrete devices), driver chips, opamps and so on. Modules are more expensive to construct and often have custom heatsinks. So its likely to be far more than just a $100 difference. We pay more than that for our heatsinks alone, which have to be machined to a pretty tight tolerance to interface properly with the GaNFETs.

Point being, he has a hard time integrating the subs to the mains if he uses a 500 watt class D plate amp. Hie Krell works best.

That does not sound like a problem with the amp controlling the driver. It sounds more like an interface problem into the rest of the system. One way that can happen is if the sub is crossed over too high. Another problem can simply be gain. If the amp is outside the crossover's ability to provide enough gain you'll certainly have a blend problem.

Without knowing a lot more or actually being there, its all speculation of course...

 

[AJ Soundfield]

Point being, he has a hard time integrating the subs to the mains if he uses a 500 watt class D plate amp. Hie Krell works best.

So nothing whatsoever to do with "Class D" and everything to do with a whole mess of DSP in front and mystery brand, model X "500 watt" dsp plate amp. Cool

 

[2FarGone]

I'm the guys who never spends more than $12 on a bottle wine. I'm too cheap.

*ahem* I would submit that there’s no way that someone who spends what you have on audio equipment and related accessories can be considered to be “cheap”. Good wines simply do not occupy a place near the top of your priority list.

 

[Kingrex]

Well, we will never get beyond speculation. And then all results will be claimed as personal bias. Then insults of, you just like the sound of distortion.

You would think the dealers would argue harder for class A AB. I would rather sell a $80k amp with a 40% markup than a $7k amp with a 40% markup.

 

[Michaels HiFi]

*ahem* I would submit that there’s no way that someone who spends what you have on audio equipment and related accessories can be considered to be “cheap”. Good wines simply do not occupy a place near the top of your priority list.

LOL. I have a confession.

I LOVE getting my daily iced coffee. I usually a have coupon on my app to make it $1.00 rather than the normal $3. If the app isn't working that day and they want to charge me full price I will literally not buy the iced coffee.

$500 on tubes? Yup.
$1,000 on vibration feet? Sign me up.
Full priced for an iced coffee? NO WAY.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

Well, we will never get beyond speculation.

We?

And then all results will be claimed as personal bias. Then insults of, you just like the sound of distortion.
You would think the dealers would argue harder for class A AB. I would rather sell a $80k amp with a 40% markup than a $7k amp with a 40% markup.

Money talks.

 

[Kingrex]

The amps are Primare A35.8 with the flagship preamp.

He said the Primare will drive the subs, but he has to bridge 2 channels per driver.

The Primare amps are class D.

He said he feels he knocking on Mike Lavignes performance level in placesucwuch as soundstage. He thinks there is a level of refinement with some of the more expensive pieces. He thinks from his experience, class A and AB have more grunt. Class D is clean and more tube like.

 

[Kingrex]

We?

Money talks.

Yes We. Is anyone going to have you over to their house and let you stick your amp into their system.

More so, is anyone going to own a high $$$$ amp and want to put a affordable class D into their system to compare and see if they can better what they have. Maybe. I doubt it. But maybe. And where do they post about it. And I just don't see anyone being excited to share, hey all, I inserted a sub $10k amp into my $750,000 lineup and loved it. Sold my high $$$$ amp.

I don't see a place to have a fair compare.

 

[Mr Peabody]

The amps are Primare A35.8 with the flagship preamp.

He said the Primare will drive the subs, but he has to bridge 2 channels per driver.

The Primare amps are class D.

He said he feels he knocking on Mike Lavignes performance level in placesucwuch as soundstage. He thinks there is a level of refinement with some of the more expensive pieces. He thinks from his experience, class A and AB have more grunt. Class D is clean and more tube like.

I didn't realize Primare had gone Class D. Not surprised though. I haven't seen any info on them in a long time.

I don't get when people say Class D sounds like tubes. I have yet to hear one that I thought came close to sounding like tubes. In fact, the way some bash tubes and rave about Class D being ultra low distortion it seems it would be a oxymoron.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

Yes We. Is anyone going to have you over to their house and let you stick your amp into their system.

Yes. How would you know what I do??
I don't make amps, but I have, on several occasions, done exactly that. On even more occasions, I bring my speakers, which I do make, with Class D amps, to demo the variable directivity and cardioid to 40hz capabilities that near zero audiophile system can have. Lots of smiles there ;-).

More so, is anyone going to own a high $$$$ amp and want to put a affordable class D into their system to compare and see if they can better what they have. Maybe. I doubt it.

Those are false dichotomies of your minds creation. Why does the Class D have to be "affordable" vs $$$A/AB?? Who made that imaginary law or rule?? AGD, Mola are in the $50k range, your system list doesn't suggest that as merely "affordable". You missed the Caltech wine data again, or didn't understand the results?

But maybe. And where do they post about it. And I just don't see anyone being excited to share, hey all, I inserted a sub $10k amp into my $750,000 lineup and loved it. Sold my high $$$$ amp.

Correct, because as you just proved unambiguously, objective metrics like amp class and price are absolutely what dictate the "It's all subjective" crowd decisions...those completely oblivious to basic word meanings

I don't see a place to have a fair compare.

Yeah, that's always been a criteria for controlled listening test rejectionists . "Trust your ears, just listen"...hmmm wonder what that means.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

He thinks there is a level of refinement with some of the more expensive pieces. He thinks from his experience, class A and AB have more grunt. Class D is clean and more tube like.

Cool. So it that all subjective, anecdote or something else??

THe said he feels he knocking on Mike Lavignes performance level in placesucwuch as soundstage.

Terrific perspective https://www.avsforum.com/threads/ob...ource=google&utm_medium=organic#post-12255000

 

[AJ Soundfield]

I don't get when people say Class D sounds like tubes.

Yes of course your all subjective anecdote overrules theirs. FWIW I don't see....excuse me, hear that either

 

[Michaels HiFi]

I don't get when people say Class D sounds like tubes.

I don't think most people know how to actually listen and what to listen for. I was lucky enough to have been show how otherwise I wouldn't either.

Many simply listen for overall tone and don't understand that is a tiny fraction of critical listening.

So I think for those people - who really listen for tone only - it may sound similar in as much as some class D can be decent if you are listening only for the overall tone.

As an example I have a TEAC class D amp here. It is the best Class D I have heard at any price. It still doesn't come close to tubes. But if you only listen for overall tone it does sound similar to some tubes.

Think of those people as 1 dimensional listeners rather than 3 dimensional listeners.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

Maybe some of the ancient class D amps created enough HF drama to sound tubish (the low/no NFB designs lest Ralph slap me) , but those days should be gone

 

[Randy Myers]

Uh, FWIW Dept.: class D amps that use modules don't use a 'chip' like the less expensive class D amps (like Fosi, Topping and so on, which tend to use TI class D integrated ICs) do.

Modules are composed of various chips like comparitor chips (although IIRC, the original UcD did that function with discrete devices), driver chips, opamps and so on. Modules are more expensive to construct and often have custom heatsinks. So its likely to be far more than just a $100 difference. We pay more than that for our heatsinks alone, which have to be machined to a pretty tight tolerance to interface properly with the GaNFETs.

That does not sound like a problem with the amp controlling the driver. It sounds more like an interface problem into the rest of the system. One way that can happen is if the sub is crossed over too high. Another problem can simply be gain. If the amp is outside the crossover's ability to provide enough gain you'll certainly have a blend problem.

Without knowing a lot more or actually being there, its all speculation of course...

Serious question. If I were interested (and probably not now, but you never know), how do I find price and availability of your amps. I looked on your website and could gain no idea of how much anything costs. Your dealer network does not come even close to my home.

I seriously was trying to do as little research and found it virtually impossible. Why do many companies (not you alone, even McIntosh does not) refuse too publish pricing? Do you sell any of your products direct.

You among others mention your Class D amplifiers (of course your tubes also) and they seem to be interesting, but I have no idea how to actually purchase a pair if I even wanted to.

 

[Bones13]

Ralph responds to email. I bought mine from him. He also has dealers, although it’s a bit confusing to find on the site.

Dealers

Usa and worldwide dealers of Atma-Sphere OTL amplifiers and tube preamplifiers.

www.atma-sphere.com

 

[Randy Myers]

Maybe some of the ancient class D amps created enough HF drama to sound tubish (the low/no NFB designs lest Ralph slap me) , but those days should be gone

I know, right. When I read that some people claim Class D amps as tube like I just smile. In my experience nothing could be further from the truth. Tubes are on one end of the spectrum; Class D are the exact opposite end.

I have had tubes; ARC, Audio Mirror, McIntosh, among others. I own both a headphone amp which is tubes (Woo) and my guitar amp is tubes (Victory). I have owned Class D; Bel Canto, PS Audio, Wyred 4 Sound, NAD, among others. Class A/B kind of fall in the middle; McIntosh, MBL, Job (Goldmund), T+A, and several others.

I have always leaned towards the British type speakers; KEF, actuall Maggies are sort of kind of in this vain, Harbeth, etc. Lower efficeincy, harder to drive. Not really designed to knock the walls down or sound like you are at a concert. But very very inviting sounding with emphasis on sound stage and presentation.

When I hear watts being brought up I just sort of chuckle. It is all about quality not quantity. At one point I put a 25 WPC McIntosh tube amp (MC225) against a 150 WPC Sony (back in the day). It was not even close. The McIntosh stomped it. The 60 WPC Audio Mirror tube amps were by far the most powerful Class A amps I ever owned. My current 150 WPC McIntosh amplifier gives me more power than I could ever use in my smallish room.

I am also certain if a person has a much larger room, or likes to listen to concert levels in their home than the WPC discussion would be more important.

 

[Randy Myers]

Ralph responds to email. I bought mine from him. He also has dealers, although it’s a bit confusing to find on the site.

Dealers

Usa and worldwide dealers of Atma-Sphere OTL amplifiers and tube preamplifiers.

www.atma-sphere.com

Thank you. I guess I am surprised that a company like his does not sell direct or at the very least publish the suggested pricing. For someone just exploring a new type of amplifier, and hearing about the new Class D GaNFET amps, it is extremely difficult to investigate. Gain knowledge if you will.

Being more friendly in pricing, availability, etc., would go a long way. This, in my view is a major issue with investigating Class D, especially latest tech in class D.

 

[Mr Peabody]

Yes. How would you know what I do??
I don't make amps, but I have, on several occasions, done exactly that. On even more occasions, I bring my speakers, which I do make, with Class D amps, to demo the variable directivity and cardioid to 40hz capabilities that near zero audiophile system can have. Lots of smiles there ;-).

Those are false dichotomies of your minds creation. Why does the Class D have to be "affordable" vs $$$A/AB?? Who made that imaginary law or rule?? AGD, Mola are in the $50k range, your system list doesn't suggest that as merely "affordable". You missed the Caltech wine data again, or didn't understand the results?


Correct, because as you just proved unambiguously, objective metrics like amp class and price are absolutely what dictate the "It's all subjective" crowd decisions...those completely oblivious to basic word meanings

Yeah, that's always been a criteria for controlled listening test rejectionists . "Trust your ears, just listen"...hmmm wonder what that means.

Not surprising you don't know what that means. Even more surprising why bring your speakers anywhere since you don't know what it means to listen?