Switched to Class D or get left behind?

[Kingrex]

Is the reason for your attempt to tare down highend due to you can't sell your stuff?

Really? Do we have to read this.

 

[Mr Peabody]

Not what he said. Your mind equates price with sound quality, as the Caltech et al study proved. The bling brands didn't invent a thing, they all take existing tech and do what marketing taught, big prices affect minds. proven science.
LPs, CDs, Open Reel, etc every source was invented by big and/or non bling brands. Stereo, surround, Transistors, tubes, horns, panels, piston drivers etc. The list goes on. Facts vs your opinions.

Not true, most of those companies were higher end in those days and when the inventions came out no average person could afford them. It took companies to bastardize them into cheaper models so they could be affordable. VCR's, DVD players etc. none of those were cheap when they came out. Certainly the inventions you mentioned weren't affordable when first introduced either.

 

[Kingrex]

I think there is a large delta between $500 and $5000. The delta between $5000 and $15,000 is smaller. The delta between $15,000 and $150,000 at times may be hard to hear. And the $15,000 unit may be sonically more pleasing.

 

[RepublicOfTexas69]

I wonder if it's really that way round.

Isn't more likely that the tiny-volume, massively priced brands get their basic designs via the big brands that sell tens of thousands of units and have huge R&D budgets to design their next wonder product? The likes of NAD, Arcan, Audiolab, Cambridge, etc are probably at the forefront of audio design, but have to build their great designs to a price that attracts the level of sales they need. Then the big-price, low-volume brands (Rolex equivalents) copy (not illegally of course) these designs, maybe using better components, and put this into a crazy-priced jewel-like cases to attract the Rolex buyers?

Like I said....
RepublicOfTexas69 said:
In some cases it worked it way up..

 

[RepublicOfTexas69]

No, that is ridiculous. Just because those brands give you bells & whistles doesn't mean they are on the cutting edge of sound quality. Gear like Esoteric are so far ahead on digital playback people like you can't even imagine. The list of speaker manufacturers way beyond. Mostly technology trickles down due to the cost of R&D. It would be rare if anyone made a $500.00 then took that tech into a $10k unit. I can't think of any, can you?

Also, it's stupid to take a $25k speaker and connect it to $5k of electronics and say you've heard the best that speaker can do. For the record your components should about equal in ability throughout the chain.

I really just shake my head at some of the stuff you post.

And I at the arrogance in your post.

Mostly technology trickles down due to the cost of R&D. It would be rare if anyone made a $500.00 then took that tech into a $10k unit. I can't think of any, can you?

Why yes....Purfi, most everything Bruno has developed.....

Guess I will put you back on the ignore list as you bring very little to the conversation other than ridicule and disdain.

 

[RepublicOfTexas69]

You assume too much. Price doesn't dictate absolute in sound quality but it's a fact that better parts are needed and cost more. Take a power supply for example, it costs more and absolutely essential for good sound.

You guys are nuts telling someone they can buy cheap crap and it sounds as good as high end gear. Those who have ears let them use them. Is the reason for your attempt to tare down highend due to you can't sell your stuff?

Who said that???? You guys?? or YOUS GUYS? Who is trying to tear down high-end. BTW it is tear not "TARE" Mr. P.

 

[RepublicOfTexas69]

Really? Do we have to read this.

Take it with a grain of salt from Mr. P. he cannot even spell tear.... and he thinks he is an expert on all thing audio and audio econ.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

You assume too much. Price doesn't dictate absolute in sound quality

But that's exactly what you claim, unabiguously.

but it's a fact that better parts are needed and cost more. Take a power supply for example, it costs more and absolutely essential for good sound.

You're going to tell me about the engineering of power supplies???

You guys are nuts telling someone they can buy cheap crap and it sounds as good as high end gear.

Nobody said that, but thanks for letting us know in your mind a $5k amp is "cheap crap".

Those who have ears let them use them. Is the reason for your attempt to tare down highend due to you can't sell your stuff?

Your eyes and mind overrule your ears, which is why I knew the A/AB test...using D, would work. You're Exhibit A.
I sell speakers as fast as I can make them. If you'd like to make a complete audiophile of yourself, I'll bring these (the big ones) $25k w $5k D amps over and put them up against your JBL/MLs in front of peers (and Youtube, no he said/she said) . We'll see who the jester is ;-)
https://pt.audio/2026/03/07/orchard-audio-and-soundfield-audio-florida-2026/

 

[Randy Myers]

You see the better gear in magazines to give readers something to aspire to. Is it once a bottom feeder always a bottom feeder?

I can only speak for myself. Music was always a love before I owned anything. I first got from my parents a suitcase record player. from there an all-in-one. A few of those actually. I eventually got my first receiver in high school. So I am well aware of what it's like to use entry level. I was also on the pursuit of better sound as money became available for that. All along I have my subscription to Stereo Review which made me aware of things like CJ's tube CDP and other gear, high power and very cool power amps, etc.

As one who has used entry level for quite awhile and elevated to what I have now I feel I am qualified to know the benefit of higher end gear and determine diminishing returns.

You guys need to look at the big picture Hopefully those who buy the entry level will aspire to better some day. If something like Fozi was around when I was starting out I probably would have been all over it myself. It would have certainly fit better than my receiver and 12" 3-way speakers in my bedroom.

I like you started at entry level. I had an all in one 8-track player . Then a Pioneer receiver, turntable, Burhoe speakers were my first "good" system. And then up from there over many years.

My point is that magazines should show and review high level, but not as an exclusive to lower level (with the ooccasional "throw a bone" review this seems to be more the case). Maybe not true entry level, but certainly a level that won't scare people off.

 

[Randy Myers]

I didn't say that.
But having thrown 20+ of those little cheapo D amps in the trash over the years, I speak from experience, not speculation.
Your experience different??

I am certain that your and my experience are different in that I have never had the little cheapo D amps . I have had some decent D amps but none that I have had to throw away .

 

[Hear Here]

Also, it's stupid to take a $25k speaker and connect it to $5k of electronics and say you've heard the best that speaker can do. For the record your components should about equal in ability throughout the chain.

Having home demo'd several costly amps with my speakers over a period of more than a year, I found none that bettered the Purifi Eigentakt one I eventually chose. Atma-Sphere perhaps adds a little, and I'm sure a £30K amp would perhaps very marginally improve the sound. I'm the sort of guy who believes (though decades of experience) that speakers are where most of a system's budget should go, supported by carefully chosen and reasonably priced electronics.

To suggest that the small "boutique" brands have the R&D budget to match the budgets available to the big brands that sell tens of thousands of units is nonsense. As A J S says, almost all advances and nerw technologies have been developed by the big boys in this game.

PS - Although I have the Esoteric N05xd as a possible streamer preamp upgrade, I'd need convincing that it'd be a significant enough improvement to warrant its price. If I spot a used one, then maybe, though I've read that its control app is poor comparted with BluOS, and this is a very good reason for staying put. I'm not a Roon fan so the control app is an important consideration in my book.

 

[atmasphere]

Isn't more likely that the tiny-volume, massively priced brands get their basic designs via the big brands that sell tens of thousands of units and have huge R&D budgets to design their next wonder product?

FWIW that's not how we did it. It would have been super easy to buy an existing module and put it in a box. But I think it would have sent a poor message to the marketplace. Instead we designed from scratch and got what we wanted.

You guys are nuts telling someone they can buy cheap crap and it sounds as good as high end gear.

High end audio is not driven by price; its driven by intention.

On that account you can indeed have an amp that bats well out of its price category, simply because the designer cared to make it so. Veblen pointed out over 100 years ago that people tend to associate greater value with greater cost and that can be an illusion. Quite often what is really happening is the price is higher simply because of that illusory perception!

As a result, if you get the right inexpensive equipment, it can be better than 99% of the sound quality of the most expensive stuff made. Its all about intention.

 

[Hear Here]

I am certain that your and my experience are different in that I have never had the little cheapo D amps . I have had some decent D amps but none that I have had to throw away .

Well I have experience of "cheapo" Class D. 25 or so years ago I used a Tripath Class D amp and it was, to say the least, disappointing. A decade later I bought a well-reviewed Red Wine amplifier to find it had a Tripath amp inside the box - another disappointment. Move on to the last few years and Class D has matured in a similar way that digital photography has overtaken film. I suspect our Mr P friend had never listened to a good and well implemented Class D amp and is probably still loading film into his antiquated camera. Let's leave him to wallow in his collection of glittery jewel boxes that he so obviously adores and can squander his money on.

 

[Hear Here]

FWIW that's not how we did it. It would have been super easy to buy an existing module and put it in a box. But I think it would have sent a poor message to the marketplace. Instead we designed from scratch and got what we wanted.

Ralph - I appreciate that and I know you have spent years developing your own Class D circuits. And you seem to accept that the writing is on the wall for hugely costly stuff that only a few buy - and they do that primarily to satisfy their own vanity rather than to seek best sound quality. I'm enjoying my Atma-Sphere Class D amps despite their modest price compared with my speakers. They are up to the job as much as a £25K amplifier in a fancy jewel box with a designer label on the box.

 

[Mr Peabody]

But that's exactly what you claim, unabiguously.


You're going to tell me about the engineering of power supplies???

Nobody said that, but thanks for letting us know in your mind a $5k amp is "cheap crap".

Your eyes and mind overrule your ears, which is why I knew the A/AB test...using D, would work. You're Exhibit A.
I sell speakers as fast as I can make them. If you'd like to make a complete audiophile of yourself, I'll bring these (the big ones) $25k w $5k D amps over and put them up against your JBL/MLs in front of peers (and Youtube, no he said/she said) . We'll see who the jester is ;-)
https://pt.audio/2026/03/07/orchard-audio-and-soundfield-audio-florida-2026/

sure, I wouldn't even have heard of you if you weren't here on the site. You can't even debate you have to write things I didn't even say. Your comprehension can't be much.

 

[Mr Peabody]

Really? Do we have to read this.

You certainly have the right to read what you want that's why the scroll button is provided.

 

[Mr Peabody]

Well I have experience of "cheapo" Class D. 25 or so years ago I used a Tripath Class D amp and it was, to say the least, disappointing. A decade later I bought a well-reviewed Red Wine amplifier to find it had a Tripath amp inside the box - another disappointment. Move on to the last few years and Class D has matured in a similar way that digital photography has overtaken film. I suspect our Mr P friend had never listened to a good and well implemented Class D amp and is probably still loading film into his antiquated camera. Let's leave him to wallow in his collection of glittery jewel boxes that he so obviously adores and can squander his money on.

You'd be wrong, I've had the Bel Canto E1X in my system as well as Merrill Audio Veritas. I've also heard your NAD, I'm glad you love it but you couldn't give it to me.

Price doesn't always equate to quality but quality does cost. I think you really realize that at least you have the NAD opposed to Fozi or similar.

 

[Mr Peabody]

And I at the arrogance in your post.

Mostly technology trickles down due to the cost of R&D. It would be rare if anyone made a $500.00 then took that tech into a $10k unit. I can't think of any, can you?

Why yes....Purfi, most everything Bruno has developed.....

Guess I will put you back on the ignore list as you bring very little to the conversation other than ridicule and disdain.

Look who can't spell Purifi, LOL You are wrong and make no sense

• Bruno Putzeys worked at Philips, where he became deeply involved in Class D amplifier design.
• He later joined Hypex Electronics, where he developed the highly regarded UcD and later NCore amplifier technologies. NCore became one of the benchmarks for high-performance Class D.
• After leaving Hypex, he co-founded Purifi Audio, where he developed the Eigentakt amplifier topology, which improves on many aspects of previous Class D designs.

There are a few reasons, and it's not simply because Purifi charges a luxury premi

• More complex design. Purifi's Eigentakt topology uses a patented error-correction system with very high loop gain across the audio band. This keeps distortion exceptionally low even at high frequencies and into difficult speaker loads, where many Class D amplifiers degrade.
• Higher-quality components. To maintain that level of consistency, the modules use carefully selected components and output filters with tighter tolerances than many budget designs.
• Extensive testing. Every module is designed for OEM use and undergoes significant validation for reliability, EMC performance, protection circuits, and manufacturing consistency. That engineering effort adds cost.
• Smaller production volumes. Companies like Texas Instruments or Infineon Technologies sell Class D chips in enormous volumes. Purifi sells specialized amplifier modules to hi-fi manufacturers in much lower quantities, so economies of scale are smaller.

The biggest factor is that Purifi modules are engineered to achieve performance
One interesting point is that the module itself is often not the biggest contributor to the price of a finished amplifier. Once you add a quality power supply, input buffer, enclosure, connectors, assembly, testing, dealer margins, and warranty, the difference between a $350 module and a $500 module becomes much smaller in the price of the finished product.

 

[RepublicOfTexas69]

Look who can't spell Purifi, LOL You are wrong and make no sense

• Bruno Putzeys worked at Philips, where he became deeply involved in Class D amplifier design.
• He later joined Hypex Electronics, where he developed the highly regarded UcD and later NCore amplifier technologies. NCore became one of the benchmarks for high-performance Class D.
• After leaving Hypex, he co-founded Purifi Audio, where he developed the Eigentakt amplifier topology, which improves on many aspects of previous Class D designs.

There are a few reasons, and it's not simply because Purifi charges a luxury premi

• More complex design. Purifi's Eigentakt topology uses a patented error-correction system with very high loop gain across the audio band. This keeps distortion exceptionally low even at high frequencies and into difficult speaker loads, where many Class D amplifiers degrade.
• Higher-quality components. To maintain that level of consistency, the modules use carefully selected components and output filters with tighter tolerances than many budget designs.
• Extensive testing. Every module is designed for OEM use and undergoes significant validation for reliability, EMC performance, protection circuits, and manufacturing consistency. That engineering effort adds cost.
• Smaller production volumes. Companies like Texas Instruments or Infineon Technologies sell Class D chips in enormous volumes. Purifi sells specialized amplifier modules to hi-fi manufacturers in much lower quantities, so economies of scale are smaller.

The biggest factor is that Purifi modules are engineered to achieve performance
One interesting point is that the module itself is often not the biggest contributor to the price of a finished amplifier. Once you add a quality power supply, input buffer, enclosure, connectors, assembly, testing, dealer margins, and warranty, the difference between a $350 module and a $500 module becomes much smaller in the price of the finished product.

Purifi is a made up word, tear is not. Also not wrong now go tare into that slick.... oh and it is Premium and the St Louis MO public education is working well... Silence!! You are IGNORED AGAIN!!! so wrong and AI failed you...

 

[Mr Peabody]

Purifi is a made up word, tear is not. Also not wrong now go tare into that slick.... oh and it is Premium and the St Louis MO public education is working well... Silence!! You are IGNORED AGAIN!!! so wrong and AI failed you...

Made up or not you still misspelled it. You failed. If I'm wrong in any place you have to explain. Whatever you say he didn't make some cheap chip and then charge a high price for it. There's still much more that goes int an amp that makes it perform well and those additional parts cost, even as I showed you this applies to Class D as well. Bruno's amps are some of the more expensive around.