Switched to Class D or get left behind?

[2FarGone]

Class D is very very good. And its affordable. Some would say Atmasphere is expensive. But I say the amps driving the M9 in another thread are expensive. Are Class D amps going to replace them. Probably not for a variety of reason. Many with nothing to do about sound. And plenty to do with sound.

Class D is shocking good when you consider a young couple in a condo with a pair of book shelf streaming Spotify. And thats probanly 90% of the market for stereo gear. As they look for a little better, and some more better, class D is going to remain the price point they can afford. Not tube and not AB. Not unless one or the other starts earning real money.

Frankly, I think you’ve nailed it. I have a small system running on a pair of Fosi V3s that sounds better than it has a right to. I also have a Rowland model 10 class D amp with upgraded power supplies that, after having some undisclosed issues addressed, sounds better than any amp I’ve ever owned in that system, and I’ve had a few good ones.

In my mind, it’s all about money and always has been. The anti-audiophile crowd loves to sneer at expensive equipment, and the price to performance ratio of some class D amps is pretty high, which gives that crowd some ammunition. But there will always be those of us that are chasing a different ideal.

 

[Randy Myers]

Class D is very very good. And its affordable. Some would say Atmasphere is expensive. But I say the amps driving the M9 in another thread are expensive. Are Class D amps going to replace them. Probably not for a variety of reason. Many with nothing to do about sound. And plenty to do with sound.

Class D is shocking good when you consider a young couple in a condo with a pair of book shelf streaming Spotify. And thats probanly 90% of the market for stereo gear. As they look for a little better, and some more better, class D is going to remain the price point they can afford. Not tube and not AB. Not unless one or the other starts earning real money.

You are making a point that I believe I have tried to make several times. Yes, there are folks who can and will buy the ultra-end of audio gear. But I also believe a vast majority of the market is the young couple in a condo who enjoy music but can't or do not want to afford crazy levels. I also believe that both manufactures, and especially magazines are missing the target by emphasizing the ultra hi end and mainly as exclusion of entry level. The future audio enthusiast will come from the entry level for the most part. The smartest companies realize this. This is just my opinion, I expect in a forum such as this many will disagree. But I say in total confidence it has for the most part always been this way and today I it is even more so.

 

[Hear Here]

You are making a point that I believe I have tried to make several times. Yes, there are folks who can and will buy the ultra-end of audio gear. But I also believe a vast majority of the market is the young couple in a condo who enjoy music but can't or do not want to afford crazy levels. I also believe that both manufactures, and especially magazines are missing the target by emphasizing the ultra hi end and mainly as exclusion of entry level. The future audio enthusiast will come from the entry level for the most part. The smartest companies realize this. This is just my opinion, I expect in a forum such as this many will disagree. But I say in total confidence it has for the most part always been this way and today I it is even more so.

I must be in neither camp - best kit at whatever the cost, or the best inexpensive kit for a small flat.

I do question those who spend 5-figure sums on amps, preamps, vinyl, etc when they feed this signal to a 4-figure pair of speakers. That's barmy to me. My speakers are well into the 5-figure mark, but I have found that careful purchase of an all-in-one (or more recently a streamer preamp and Class D power amp) delivers as good a sound as I can expect from my costly speakers. I chose this kit from a dozen other amps, mostly much more costly, but the combination of performance, features and user friendliness makes me pretty happy. Yes I could improve the sound marginally, but the cost would be huge. I have always considered that speakers are far and away the most important ingredient for life-like, ralistic and believable sound, and cables (you need lots of them with a pile of separates) far and away the least important, so I do away with them as far as possible. With modern kit, this previously necessary evil can be virtually eliminated, so adding to the budget for the important stuff!

 

[Randy Myers]

I must be in neither camp - best kit at whatever the cost, or the best inexpensive kit for a small flat.

I do question those who spend 5-figure sums on amps, preamps, vinyl, etc when they feed this signal to a 4-figure pair of speakers. That's barmy to me. My speakers are well into the 5-figure mark, but I have found that careful purchase of an all-in-one (or more recently a streamer preamp and Class D power amp) delivers as good a sound as I can expect from my costly speakers. I chose this kit from a dozen other amps, mostly much more costly, but the combination of performance, features and user friendliness makes me pretty happy. Yes I could improve the sound marginally, but the cost would be huge. I have always considered that speakers are far and away the most important ingredient for life-like, ralistic and believable sound, and cables (you need lots of them with a pile of separates) far and away the least important, so I do away with them as far as possible. With modern kit, this previously necessary evil can be virtually eliminated, so adding to the budget for the important stuff!

I would say I am probably more in neither camp also. I do have a decent chunk on change (in my view) into my system, but none of my components would fall into the range of a nice high-end car. My point is that what I see in magazines and many of the manufactures is this emphasis on the ultra-high end while neglecting the entry level. I 100% believe the entry level and slight step ups from there is where the future generations will come from. I also believe this race to the top is not good as a whole for our hobby because capturing the younger generation is quite important for longevity in our hobby.

 

[Hear Here]

I would say I am probably more in neither camp also. I do have a decent chunk on change (in my view) into my system, but none of my components would fall into the range of a nice high-end car. My point is that what I see in magazines and many of the manufactures is this emphasis on the ultra-high end while neglecting the entry level. I 100% believe the entry level and slight step ups from there is where the future generations will come from. I also believe this race to the top is not good as a whole for our hobby because capturing the younger generation is quite important for longevity in our hobby.

Yes, all good points. The generation now listening to Spotify or YouTube via their poxy phones over earbuds will one day hopefully realise that this really isn't anything like a live performance - and they've probably never heard real instruments playing live. At the concerts they go to, they are still listening to paper or plastic cones being pushed back and forth by magnetic fields.

Hopefully at least some will eventually appreciate the sound that good hi-fi can generate and the associated excitement factor.

The hugely costly stuff that seems to be a feature of a couple of high-end forums, seems to attract its buyers as much by their fancy and very expensive boxes as their audio quality. A first-class sound can be achieved without these crazy prices, but some regard their hi-fi in much the same way people regard Rolex watches. Rolex is no better at its job of telling the time than a £30 Micky Mouse watch, but some want to show off their fashion credentials by having Rolex on their wrists and goodness knows what on their hi-fi shelves! What a strange lot the Human Race is!

 

[Michaels HiFi]

Yes, all good points. The generation now listening to Spotify or YouTube via their poxy phones over earbuds will one day hopefully realise that this really isn't anything like a live performance - and they've probably never heard real instruments playing live. At the concerts they go to, they are still listening to paper or plastic cones being pushed back and forth by magnetic fields.

Hopefully at least some will eventually appreciate the sound that good hi-fi can generate and the associated excitement factor.

The hugely costly stuff that seems to be a feature of a couple of high-end forums, seems to attract its buyers as much by their fancy and very expensive boxes as their audio quality. A first-class sound can be achieved without these crazy prices, but some regard their hi-fi in much the same way people regard Rolex watches. Rolex is no better at its job of telling the time than a £30 Micky Mouse watch, but some want to show off their fashion credentials by having Rolex on their wrists and goodness knows what on their hi-fi shelves! What a strange lot the Human Race is!

I agree with many of your points.

I would add I am thankful for those who buy the $100,000 servers, DAC and other gear as much of that technology works its way down into the more affordable gear the rest of us buy.

 

[RepublicOfTexas69]

I agree with many of your points.

I would add I am thankful for those who buy the $100,000 servers, DAC and other gear as much of that technology works its way down into the more affordable gear the rest of us buy.

In some cases it worked it way up..

 

[Kingrex]

On another thread I made the mistake of saying young people don't know what live music sounds like because they can not afford to pay for concert tickets. Someone called me on it. When I went searching for numbers, I found there were something like 30 million concert tickets sold a year in the 70. There has been a consistent rise in ticket sales where they are around 90 million today.

My point it that the enthusiasm to listen to music seems to be there. And people will spend some money on it. But we also know the gap between the wealthy and not is wider. And the middle class has shrank. Although more went up than down. There is a pretty health percent of people in the US and the world that have enough to afford say a $50K system. Hence, the manufacture and magazine are focusing on the high end. As a forum and community, we seem to gravitate to it too. There are a lot of YouTube influencers that focus on the affordable. Who watches that young Asian kid that talks about Fosi and other, sub $300 amps and speakers. I have once or twice, but that is not what I am seeking to buy, so its not often.

It probably does not make sense for high end manufacturer to focus on low $$$ product. That is a different type of manufacturing. They may not be scaled for it. Atmasphere probably sells hundreds of his class D amp a year. Fosi probanly sells 10s of thousands.
Where is your personal passion. Do you think Ralph gets personal satisfaction from the high quality components he makes. Would he get the same satisfaction adding 8 hours more work a day to his schedule to make a stamped out $180 amp. I doubt it. Thats just chasing money.