RepublicOfTexas69
Member
And in some cases it will.
Switched to Class D or get left behind?
- Thread starter nc42acc
- Start date
I’ve owned a few Class D amps from reputable makers and they’ve ranged from awful to ok, with one exception (I’ll get to that in a minute).
By far, the amps I’ve preferred from what I’ve owned and heard at shows or home sessions have been Class A. The amp that by far gave the sound I’ve enjoyed the most was a Boulder. Big, heavy, expensive, and sublime.
Of the class D I’ve heard, probably the only one I liked until recently was the AGD gan fet, at FL audio expo a few years ago. I almost bought it.
Somewhat ironically, the amp I have now and likely for a while is class D, the axxess forte. It sounds great, and is a set of compromises I can live with for now. Audio group Denmark claims their class d is of their own engineering so that could be why I don’t dislike it as I have previous class d amps. Do I like it as much as my Boulder or Ayre mono blocks? Not even close. I suspect a not-small part of that is that it’s an all-in-one system; I’ve heard audio group denmarks separate amp based on “their” class d at the Expo and it sounded great. Of course that was with $60k speakers.
Far as measurements, I don’t give a shit. I’ve been at this long enough and heard enough systems in enough contexts over 40+ years to know what I like.
Disclaimer - for those about to attack me for not saying “to me!” over and over, get over it. Of course the things we say are by default “to me” and it’s usually pretty clear when people are trying to make universal statements, and easily ignored.
By far, the amps I’ve preferred from what I’ve owned and heard at shows or home sessions have been Class A. The amp that by far gave the sound I’ve enjoyed the most was a Boulder. Big, heavy, expensive, and sublime.
Of the class D I’ve heard, probably the only one I liked until recently was the AGD gan fet, at FL audio expo a few years ago. I almost bought it.
Somewhat ironically, the amp I have now and likely for a while is class D, the axxess forte. It sounds great, and is a set of compromises I can live with for now. Audio group Denmark claims their class d is of their own engineering so that could be why I don’t dislike it as I have previous class d amps. Do I like it as much as my Boulder or Ayre mono blocks? Not even close. I suspect a not-small part of that is that it’s an all-in-one system; I’ve heard audio group denmarks separate amp based on “their” class d at the Expo and it sounded great. Of course that was with $60k speakers.
Far as measurements, I don’t give a shit. I’ve been at this long enough and heard enough systems in enough contexts over 40+ years to know what I like.
Disclaimer - for those about to attack me for not saying “to me!” over and over, get over it. Of course the things we say are by default “to me” and it’s usually pretty clear when people are trying to make universal statements, and easily ignored.
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Mr Peabody
Well-known member
Those who are Class D fans will love this article. I happen not to agree with some of the points unless your goal is a $2k to $3k system. Even then I'd prefer something like the parasound INT6. I'm just not sold as you can tell from my prior comments. This magazine shamelessly promotes Class D for some reason and prints similar articles fairly regularly if you check their archive. I especially don't agree where he talks about Class D being able to produce plenty of power into any speaker. That still requires a power supply and if the amp has a good one it is no longer inexpensive. I agree it's human nature to resist change but I disagree it's the only thing holding audiophiles from embracing Class D. You who have ears let them hear.
futureaudiophile.com
Those in favor of Class Dparrot pretty much every point in this article.
Owning a Class-D Audiophile Amp is Classy These Days
Owning a Class-D Amp is Classy for those audiophiles who have become tired with the downsides of traditional amps but not their sound.
futureaudiophile.com
Those in favor of Class Dparrot pretty much every point in this article.
Michaels HiFi
Well-known member
Those who are Class D fans will love this article. I happen not to agree with some of the points unless your goal is a $2k to $3k system. Even then I'd prefer something like the parasound INT6. I'm just not sold as you can tell from my prior comments. This magazine shamelessly promotes Class D for some reason and prints similar articles fairly regularly if you check their archive. I especially don't agree where he talks about Class D being able to produce plenty of power into any speaker. That still requires a power supply and if the amp has a good one it is no longer inexpensive. I agree it's human nature to resist change but I disagree it's the only thing holding audiophiles from embracing Class D. You who have ears let them hear.
Owning a Class-D Audiophile Amp is Classy These Days
Owning a Class-D Amp is Classy for those audiophiles who have become tired with the downsides of traditional amps but not their sound.
Those in favor of Class Dparrot pretty much every point in this article.
I've never liked that mag since about a year ago they did an article on class D saying it's our social responsibility to move away from tubes and embrace class D in order to save the earth.
Of course the authors system at the time consisted of a Class A amp. Not exactly eco-friendly. I messaged him and he told me I was "part of the problem destroying the earth by my love and promotion of tube gear".
I view it as my social responsibility to not engage such virtue-signaling eco-nutjobs. LOL
People should buy what they want - what ever it is for what ever reasons they believe in - without the lecturing of others.
Mr Peabody
Well-known member
I just don't like the hypocrisy and lying. If the Class D sound as good as Class A or A/B in a side-by-side then wouldn't have to convince people to buy them. If they sounded as good then it would come to cosmetics or other choices. If all was the same who wouldn't want a 15 lb. amp compared to 100 lb. Let Class D stand on its own don't be trying to blow smoke up you know where. If it's taking over then you wouldn't need to be telling me about it. I say "telling me about it" but it's more like a high pressure sale. It's this, it's that, everybody is buying it, the only reason you won't is your stuck in the past man, you got to have it, you can't hear it's the same? If you like it then fine buy it but shut up about it. We all don't want the same thing.
But…but…it’s so fashionable these days.
RepublicOfTexas69
Member
No that's not true. I love Tubes and A A/B G D and GaN for what each brings. You paint with broad strokes. YAWN!Those who are Class D fans will love this article. I happen not to agree with some of the points unless your goal is a $2k to $3k system. Even then I'd prefer something like the parasound INT6. I'm just not sold as you can tell from my prior comments. This magazine shamelessly promotes Class D for some reason and prints similar articles fairly regularly if you check their archive. I especially don't agree where he talks about Class D being able to produce plenty of power into any speaker. That still requires a power supply and if the amp has a good one it is no longer inexpensive. I agree it's human nature to resist change but I disagree it's the only thing holding audiophiles from embracing Class D. You who have ears let them hear.
Owning a Class-D Audiophile Amp is Classy These Days
Owning a Class-D Amp is Classy for those audiophiles who have become tired with the downsides of traditional amps but not their sound.
Those in favor of Class Dparrot pretty much every point in this article.
RepublicOfTexas69
Member
No that's not true. I love Tubes and A A/B G D and GaN for what each brings. You paint with broad strokes. YAWN!Those who are Class D fans will love this article. I happen not to agree with some of the points unless your goal is a $2k to $3k system. Even then I'd prefer something like the parasound INT6. I'm just not sold as you can tell from my prior comments. This magazine shamelessly promotes Class D for some reason and prints similar articles fairly regularly if you check their archive. I especially don't agree where he talks about Class D being able to produce plenty of power into any speaker. That still requires a power supply and if the amp has a good one it is no longer inexpensive. I agree it's human nature to resist change but I disagree it's the only thing holding audiophiles from embracing Class D. You who have ears let them hear.
Owning a Class-D Audiophile Amp is Classy These Days
Owning a Class-D Amp is Classy for those audiophiles who have become tired with the downsides of traditional amps but not their sound.
Those in favor of Class Dparrot pretty much every point in this article.
Randy Myers
Well-known member
Say it ain't so....But…but…it’s so fashionable these days.
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AJ Soundfield
Well-known member
Old crazy audiophiles amp class OCD. Cool. Can't beat em' join em.
Randy Myers
Well-known member
I love the idea of Class D but have yet to find one that does the trick for me. I will stick to my 75-pound McIntosh amplifier. Even when I talked to McIntosh techs, that I trust, they told me to get their standard amp over their Class D amps (I was considering between the two). They said their Class D have a purpose, but they are not as good for 2-channel audio listening.
AJ Soundfield
Well-known member
These are all personal preferences Randy, never based on sound..the dictionary definition, but rather "sound" with blue lights, anchor weights, what some apostle said/claimed, big price tag, etc, etc.
I've posted this previously, but over a decade ago, at the largest US audio show, I put audiophiles "Amp Class hearing eyes" subject to the test, unknown to them. Using my speakers with garden hose thick uber cables and $20k monoblocks that could be switched from AB to pure class A, hundreds of believers, including some well known reviewers, were asked to chose which sounded better, A or AB. As you might have guessed, 98% chose A, a tiny handful AB. No surprise right? "A" just had a slightly sweeter warmer blah blah blah sound, imaging yadda yadda. Fits squarely with belief. All heard clear differences.
Couple years later I was speaking to the cable manufacturer who was now out of the business and I told him the truth, the entire show, my speakers were being driven by class D amps hidden underside the speakers, wirelessly from my laptop.
Not a single cable or amp to dummy terminals was in the signal path. The eye/knowledge/brain expectation bias crowd passed with flying colors ;-). Of course, unlike them, I understood the science behind it all Marketing actions can modulate neural representations of experienced pleasantness
Audio should be fun and it certainly is for me.
Bottom line, exactly as the science predicts, buy what you feel makes you happiest, chances are it will.
cheers
AJ
Michaels HiFi
Well-known member
These are all personal preferences Randy, never based on sound..the dictionary definition, but rather "sound" with blue lights, anchor weights, what some apostle said/claimed, big price tag, etc, etc.
I've posted this previously, but over a decade ago, at the largest US audio show, I put audiophiles "Amp Class hearing eyes" subject to the test, unknown to them. Using my speakers with garden hose thick uber cables and $20k monoblocks that could be switched from AB to pure class A, hundreds of believers, including some well known reviewers, were asked to chose which sounded better, A or AB. As you might have guessed, 98% chose A, a tiny handful AB. No surprise right? "A" just had a slightly sweeter warmer blah blah blah sound, imaging yadda yadda. Fits squarely with belief. All heard clear differences.
Couple years later I was speaking to the cable manufacturer who was now out of the business and I told him the truth, the entire show, my speakers were being driven by class D amps hidden underside the speakers, wirelessly from my laptop.
Not a single cable or amp to dummy terminals was in the signal path. The eye/knowledge/brain expectation bias crowd passed with flying colors ;-). Of course, unlike them, I understood the science behind it all Marketing actions can modulate neural representations of experienced pleasantness
Audio should be fun and it certainly is for me.
Bottom line, exactly as the science predicts, buy what you feel makes you happiest, chances are it will.
cheers
AJ
I certainly agree expectation bias is real for many people.
But it's a bit unrealistic to say everyone has it.
The fact they chose Class D amps says all we need to know about their hearing. (JUST KIDDING!)
AJ Soundfield
Well-known member
It's everyone, me included! And of course, plain ol preferences
Randy Myers
Well-known member
Of course this is true. I have tried at least a half dozen different and highly respected Class D amplifiers. Honestly, I could have lived with any of them. But every one of them just seemed to be missing that warm and fuzzy feeling to me. Just a tad to sterile for my liking. Of these the one I like best was the NAD. NAD and McIntosh share the same technology for their line of Class D amplifiers by the way. Again, a lot of personal preference, because no matter what any magazine article or online reviewer writes, there is not one piece of gear that is better for everyone in any circumstance.These are all personal preferences Randy, never based on sound..the dictionary definition, but rather "sound" with blue lights, anchor weights, what some apostle said/claimed, big price tag, etc, etc.
I've posted this previously, but over a decade ago, at the largest US audio show, I put audiophiles "Amp Class hearing eyes" subject to the test, unknown to them. Using my speakers with garden hose thick uber cables and $20k monoblocks that could be switched from AB to pure class A, hundreds of believers, including some well known reviewers, were asked to chose which sounded better, A or AB. As you might have guessed, 98% chose A, a tiny handful AB. No surprise right? "A" just had a slightly sweeter warmer blah blah blah sound, imaging yadda yadda. Fits squarely with belief. All heard clear differences.
Couple years later I was speaking to the cable manufacturer who was now out of the business and I told him the truth, the entire show, my speakers were being driven by class D amps hidden underside the speakers, wirelessly from my laptop.
Not a single cable or amp to dummy terminals was in the signal path. The eye/knowledge/brain expectation bias crowd passed with flying colors ;-). Of course, unlike them, I understood the science behind it all Marketing actions can modulate neural representations of experienced pleasantness
Audio should be fun and it certainly is for me.
Bottom line, exactly as the science predicts, buy what you feel makes you happiest, chances are it will.
cheers
AJ
Therefore, as of that time frame I preferred the McIntosh Class A/B amps, but I could easily live with any of the Class Ds that I have tried.
I have had thoughts, now that I am getting a little up in the years, of doing a complete revamp. Getting some good Class D amplifier (not sure which) and maybe a Hatter passive pre-amp. Physically small system especially when continue using my T+A DAC. I had a Hatter and it is one of those pieces I wish I had kept. I also once owned the T+A matching amplifier to my DAC and it is another I wish I had kept. Beautiful little amplifier. I probably would miss the flexibility of the McIntosh pre-amp though.
I'm not a Class D guy but I understand the attraction. I've heard Atma-sphere Class D that sounded really good. Heard AGD with Fischer & Fischer speakers at CAF and it was a head turner-really good.
Implicit bias is part of the human condition. Its been proven over and over by studies from places like MIT, by neuroimaging studies, by all manner of scientific studies. Its implicit-you don't think about it but you can't wish it away anymore than you can tell your heart to beat at 65 beats per minute. Whether implicit bias is involved in a particular audio interaction is a different matter. Sometimes, two things can be true at once.
As we all know, there are "super audiophiles" for whom the normal laws of science do not apply. Folks who can detect more inner detail if their cable risers are lifted a half inch, or those whose hearing improves with age. But these super humans only exist in the audio world.
Implicit bias is part of the human condition. Its been proven over and over by studies from places like MIT, by neuroimaging studies, by all manner of scientific studies. Its implicit-you don't think about it but you can't wish it away anymore than you can tell your heart to beat at 65 beats per minute. Whether implicit bias is involved in a particular audio interaction is a different matter. Sometimes, two things can be true at once.
As we all know, there are "super audiophiles" for whom the normal laws of science do not apply. Folks who can detect more inner detail if their cable risers are lifted a half inch, or those whose hearing improves with age. But these super humans only exist in the audio world.
Mr Peabody
Well-known member
You shouldn't be so quick to be dismissive. It also seems to be audiophiles are the only ones who are prone to product d elusions. So many get a kick out of being anti-audiophile in attitude.. Not saying this is you.
Everyone needs to consider people listen differently. I've honestly have gone to a friend's house who is an audiophile and his system was in mono without him realizing it. It took me only a couple seconds and brought it to his attention. Another fallacy is listening being equated to hearing acuity. Perfect hearing will not allow one to hear the differences in gear or cables or whatever. This takes experience and learning what to listen for. It also helps if you use a system you are familiar with. Some who have had systems for years may still never get it. You have to listen intently enough to pick up on nuances. There are different depths to which we listen. If someone doesn't listen with depth or intensity they may never get it. I think that's why some don't understand claims that are made by others. If they can't hear it, it must not be true.
It's simple for me there are aspects I hear in my amplifier that no Class D so far has delivered. I am the type of person that just sits and listens though, no browsing phone or whatever, no other side distractions.
AJ is a joker, jester, if that story is even true I'm confident I wouldn't have been fooled.
AJ Soundfield
Well-known member
I did note I was the only one at the show who could comprehend what the Caltech et al science showed. has nothing to do with delusion.
If you'd like to put your audiophile knowledge system up against my Class D powered Titans in front of peers and make a complete audiophile of yourself, I'm, game. Careful what you wish for...
Michaels HiFi
Well-known member
You brought up a great point
It's not that many CAN'T hear the difference (yet are quick to put down those who CAN and always claim its some bias), it's that they haven't been taught HOW to listen and WHAT to listen for.
I've been very fortunate to have several well regarded friends in the the recording industry teach me how and what to listen for and how to remove pre-conceived biases. Yes you still need to remain vigilant about it - but just because some people aren't able doesn't mean everyone is unable.
And let's be honest, you can make a poll or a study look any way you'd like - look at how many studies claim milk is good for you, then it's bad for you, then another study claims it's good, blah blah blah.