Super Speaker Shootout - which design wins?

mep

mep

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a.wayne said:
Yeah ,

Im sure there are many very capable amps out there which can drive the Wamms out of them , my good friend Morricab may even suggest an SET or 2..


:)


What we now need is a good SOTA speaker shootout ,can there be one king or is that King dead ..
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People could never agree on one "King" speaker. No more than they can agree on any other audio component and where it ranks in the audiophile jungle pecking order.
 
Re: Dave Wilson's WAMM Master Chronosonic Loudspeaker Reaches For The Heavens

a.wayne said:
Yeah ,

Im sure there are many very capable amps out there which can drive the Wamms out of them , my good friend Morricab may even suggest an SET or 2..


:)


What we now need is a good SOTA speaker shootout ,can there be one king or is that King dead ..
Click to expand...

as far as a SOTA speaker shootout to find the King, the problem is what it takes to optimize a 'mega' speaker demands a room and system unique and optimal to that speaker and set-up appropriate to that level of commitment. so we end up comparing systems and not isolating speakers.

anything less and it's a waste of time as no 'mega' speaker is properly served by some casual comparison.

we are likely left to popularity contests and brand reputations.

but it is fun to think about.....
 
Re: Dave Wilson's WAMM Master Chronosonic Loudspeaker Reaches For The Heavens

Mike said:
Who thinks it would be a cone & dome speaker?

My money would be on:

Magico Ultimate (horn)
Avantgarde Trio XD (horn) with 6 bass horns
MBL 101 xTreme (omnipolar)
Living Voice Vox Olympian (horn)


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my 2 cents is that 3 those 4 speaker systems would end up not as coherent top to bottom at the end of the day as the very top dynamic cone systems as things got hot and heavy, with possibly the MBL xTreme being coherent but so demanding of amplification that nuance would be lacking as modest volume levels. dynamic cone systems are not as sexy to think about, but have the best overall balance of virtues.

and the room and system would be dominant over the speaker system in ultimate performance.

purely one man's viewpoint based on daily living with an 'uber' speaker system in a no-holds-bared room.

if you have a restricted FR category you are dumbing down the idea of an ultimate speaker system.
 
Re: Dave Wilson's WAMM Master Chronosonic Loudspeaker Reaches For The Heavens

I respectfully disagree. Compared to the worlds best horns, a cone & dome will sound like someone is standing on the woofers, no matter how much power you have. Dynamics of a cone and dome can never compete with a horn. How far do typical woofers have to move vs a horn? You want as close to live sounds? See above. Downside? Big. Expensive. Big. Not everyone's cup of tea visually. Did I mention big?



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Re: Dave Wilson's WAMM Master Chronosonic Loudspeaker Reaches For The Heavens

Mike said:
I respectfully disagree. Compared to the worlds best horns, a cone & dome will sound like someone is standing on the woofers, no matter how much power you have. Dynamics of a cone and dome can never compete with a horn. How far do typical woofers have to move vs a horn? You want as close to live sounds? See above. Downside? Big. Expensive. Big. Not everyone's cup of tea visually. Did I mention big?



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I'm sure what you meant to say is that you have not heard a cone and dome do dynamics close enough to a horn, and coherence in the mid range and mid bass close enough to a panel, while being much, much better in bass coherence, to be sound overall better.

right?
 
Re: Dave Wilson's WAMM Master Chronosonic Loudspeaker Reaches For The Heavens

Mike Lavigne said:
I'm sure what you meant to say is that you have not heard a cone and dome do dynamics close enough to a horn, and coherence in the mid range and mid bass close enough to a panel, while being much, much better in bass coherence, to be sound overall better.

right?
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No, what I'm saying is that if the goal is to get as close to "live" sounds as possible, these world class horn systems will outperform the best cone & dome all day long.


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Re: Dave Wilson's WAMM Master Chronosonic Loudspeaker Reaches For The Heavens

Mike said:
No, what I'm saying is that if the goal is to get as close to "live" sounds as possible, these world class horn systems will outperform the best cone & dome all day long.


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sure; horns can have ultimate 'jump' factor within a limited frequency range, along with a list of less desirable side effects and limitations. with simple music they can be very special.

but the more complicated things get the more they lose any advantage.

an uber speaker system needs headroom and broad performance envelope. so the question becomes how close can a cone and dome get to that 'jump factor' while retaining it's other advantages, and what are the implications for that over a wide spectrum of musical choices.

there are no absolutes, there is mostly execution of concept. and a cone and dome has a more likely end result for all the music.
 
Dave Wilson's WAMM Master Chronosonic Loudspeaker Reaches For The Heavens

metaphacts said:
Horses for courses Mike.

YMMV.
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Physics Bill. Compare how far a cone diaphragm has to move vs a horn. That's dynamics no matter how many megawatts you have on the other end of a woofer or 12. These super horns IMO, achieve close to live. Horns aren't perfect, but my argument is that at the end of the day, in search of the best hyper-speaker, a cone and dome would be unlikely to win. Don't get me wrong, unless you love the visuals, have a room the size of a gymnasium and are prepared to work extra hard on the peripheries, a cone and done makes way more sense for most and still can sound incredible.

As for Mike's coherence argument, the same can be said for most cone & domes. There is rarely a perfect seamless match between the woofers and tweeter due to different materials used between the woofers and tweeter. So where the 100hz down will be the coherence challenge for a horn, the ~2khz-30khz will be the challenge for SOME cone & domes.

Keep this in mind, consistently the ultimate speaker at Munich is a horn. If it's not Silbatone (old Western Electric's), it's Living Voice Vox Olympian. Both horns. Again, we're talking super speaker million dollar category.

Now back to the WAMM. Looking forward to hearing it.


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Re: Dave Wilson's WAMM Master Chronosonic Loudspeaker Reaches For The Heavens

Mike said:
Physics Bill. Compare how far a cone diaphragm has to move vs a horn. That's dynamics no matter how many megawatts you have on the other end of a woofer or 12. These super horns IMO, achieve close to live. Horns aren't perfect, but my argument is that at the end of the day, in search of the best hyper-speaker, a cone and dome would be unlikely to win. Don't get me wrong, unless you love the visuals, have a room the size of a gymnasium and are prepared to work extra hard on the peripheries, a cone and done makes way more sense for most and still can sound incredible.

As for Mike's coherence argument, the same can be said for most cone & domes. There is rarely a perfect seamless match between the woofers and tweeter due to different materials used between the woofers and tweeter. So where the 100hz down will be the coherence challenge for a horn, the ~2khz-30khz will be the challenge for SOME cone & domes.

Keep this in mind, consistently the ultimate speaker at Munich is a horn. If it's not Silbatone (old Western Electric's), it's Living Voice Vox Olympian. Both horns. Again, we're talking super speaker million dollar category.

Now back to the WAMM. Looking forward to hearing it.


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the 'Munich' comment is not relevant. at the top of the food chain these speaker systems need very involved rooms and set-ups. I do get that the magic of a horn comes through more easily than a large multi-tower cone and dome system in a hotel room. which really tells us very little about the potential of these ultimate systems. it's a data point and little more than that.

I know what it has taken to get my speakers to perform as they do now. it's a slow laborious process.
 
Re: Dave Wilson's WAMM Master Chronosonic Loudspeaker Reaches For The Heavens

Ok ,

Both arguments hold water and as MikeL had previously suggested its as much system execution as any and Yes there are inherent advantages /Disadvantages in all speaker topologies but mostly it comes down to what the listener is sensititive to and while i have my preference topology wise , Im pretty careful with how i play that audio panacea Curve ball...

Aside ,

I prefer (like MikeL) a large 4 tower system , where the Bass units are seperate from the mains for best localization and positioning , yet , I also agree with Sharky Mike about Dome tweeters vs Horns and instead prefer Linesource instead of point source, yet and this is where that audio curve ball gets you , MikeL has proven in his room and his meticulous setup, NF point-source can work at SOTA level too ..

Horns,

I'm sensitive to Horn shout for dynamics , i do find Linesources can exhale without the shout , so they are much better here , yet i have never heard any other speaker topology capture the purity of tone on Brass, Violins, Cellos and double bass like a large fullrange Horn...


Less also not forget High sensitivity Horns have a big advantage , SET amplification ...!!!!

Less also not overlook MikeL is a very experienced and meticulous Audiophile , if there was ever a way , his journey , approach and effort was always it IMO, impressive at every junction , is he the only one doing so , No, i mention this because his overall system performance may not be typical of the genre .


SET amplification and big horns can be very special thou , so is sitting back , sipping wine and Speaker King hunting ...


:)
 
Re: Dave Wilson's WAMM Master Chronosonic Loudspeaker Reaches For The Heavens

a.wayne said:
Ok ,

Both arguments hold water and as MikeL had previously suggested its as much system execution as any and Yes there are inherent advantages /Disadvantages in all speaker topologies but mostly it comes down to what the listener is sensititive to and while i have my preference topology wise , Im pretty careful with how i play that audio panacea Curve ball...

Aside ,

I prefer (like MikeL) a large 4 tower system , where the Bass units are seperate from the mains for best localization and positioning , yet , I also agree with Sharky Mike about Dome tweeters vs Horns and instead prefer Linesource instead of point source, yet and this is where that audio curve ball gets you , MikeL has proven in his room and his meticulous setup, NF point-source can work at SOTA level too ..

Horns,

I'm sensitive to Horn shout for dynamics , i do find Linesources can exhale without the shout , so they are much better here , yet i have never heard any other speaker topology capture the purity of tone on Brass, Violins, Cellos and double bass like a large fullrange Horn...


Less also not forget High sensitivity Horns have a big advantage , SET amplification ...!!!!

Less also not overlook MikeL is a very experienced and meticulous Audiophile , if there was ever a way , his journey , approach and effort was always it IMO, impressive at every junction , is he the only one doing so , No, i mention this because his overall system performance may not be typical of the genre .


SET amplification and big horns can be very special thou , so is sitting back , sipping wine and Speaker King hunting ...


:)
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A. Wayne, thank you for the kind words.

I do strongly think that acquisition of a true 'uber' speaker system is maybe the easiest and even the least costly step in finding that ultimate performance from it.

it takes a long term love affair, uncompromising relentlessness and a high pain threshold to find the prize. and likely any of the speakers listed in this thread (and a few others) could be fantastic.

I hope someone who does acquire the new WAMM does take it all the way there. that will be a wonderful thing.
 
Re: Dave Wilson's WAMM Master Chronosonic Loudspeaker Reaches For The Heavens

Mike said:
Physics Bill. Compare how far a cone diaphragm has to move vs a horn. That's dynamics no matter how many megawatts you have on the other end of a woofer or 12. These super horns IMO, achieve close to live. Horns aren't perfect, but my argument is that at the end of the day, in search of the best hyper-speaker, a cone and dome would be unlikely to win. Don't get me wrong, unless you love the visuals, have a room the size of a gymnasium and are prepared to work extra hard on the peripheries, a cone and done makes way more sense for most and still can sound incredible.

As for Mike's coherence argument, the same can be said for most cone & domes. There is rarely a perfect seamless match between the woofers and tweeter due to different materials used between the woofers and tweeter. So where the 100hz down will be the coherence challenge for a horn, the ~2khz-30khz will be the challenge for SOME cone & domes.

Keep this in mind, consistently the ultimate speaker at Munich is a horn. If it's not Silbatone (old Western Electric's), it's Living Voice Vox Olympian. Both horns. Again, we're talking super speaker million dollar category.

Now back to the WAMM. Looking forward to hearing it.


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Fortunately physics doesn't limit itself to one parameter.

But thanks for bringing the thread back on topic. :)
 
Re: Dave Wilson's WAMM Master Chronosonic Loudspeaker Reaches For The Heavens

Mike said:
Physics Bill. Compare how far a cone diaphragm has to move vs a horn. That's dynamics no matter how many megawatts you have on the other end of a woofer or 12. These super horns IMO, achieve close to live. Horns aren't perfect, but my argument is that at the end of the day, in search of the best hyper-speaker, a cone and dome would be unlikely to win. Don't get me wrong, unless you love the visuals, have a room the size of a gymnasium and are prepared to work extra hard on the peripheries, a cone and done makes way more sense for most and still can sound incredible.

As for Mike's coherence argument, the same can be said for most cone & domes. There is rarely a perfect seamless match between the woofers and tweeter due to different materials used between the woofers and tweeter. So where the 100hz down will be the coherence challenge for a horn, the ~2khz-30khz will be the challenge for SOME cone & domes.

Keep this in mind, consistently the ultimate speaker at Munich is a horn. If it's not Silbatone (old Western Electric's), it's Living Voice Vox Olympian. Both horns. Again, we're talking super speaker million dollar category.

Now back to the WAMM. Looking forward to hearing it.


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Mike

have you heard the Genesis Dragon Speaker? pretty sure that has never been shown at any hifi show.

Best speaker I have had the pleasure of listening to - sitting down or standing up it sounds the same which is pretty incredible.
 
Re: Dave Wilson's WAMM Master Chronosonic Loudspeaker Reaches For The Heavens

XV-1 said:
Mike

have you heard the Genesis Dragon Speaker? pretty sure that has never been shown at any hifi show.

Best speaker I have had the pleasure of listening to - sitting down or standing up it sounds the same which is pretty incredible.
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I heard the Genesis Forte ($140k).
 
Re: Dave Wilson's WAMM Master Chronosonic Loudspeaker Reaches For The Heavens

XV-1 said:
Mike

have you heard the Genesis Dragon Speaker? pretty sure that has never been shown at any hifi show.

Best speaker I have had the pleasure of listening to - sitting down or standing up it sounds the same which is pretty incredible.
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I've heard the big Genesis 1.2 twice here in Seattle when Gary Koh had a 'break-in' party prior to packing and shipping out to a customer. one of them was a Dragon as I recall but I might be wrong about that. both were set up in Gary's facility so not in a mature system or even ideal show conditions. yet they did some magnificent things.

and no doubt they have a very large sweet spot......at least how Gary had them set up. here is a link to the event last summer.

http://www.whatsbestforum.com/showthread.php?20984-Invitation-to-Summer-Social-2016
 
Re: Dave Wilson's WAMM Master Chronosonic Loudspeaker Reaches For The Heavens

As someone who "plays in this sandbox", here's my 2 cents.

I very much agree with most of Mike Lavigne has said earlier. We compare systems and rooms not "speakers". At the highest level, plug and play comparisons are worthless, which is why most reviews are worthless. The room and system requirements for say Genesis Dragons and Living Voice Vox are completely different. How would you ever compare them? IMHO, much of the popularity of cone/dome systems has to do with this. Most people just find cones/domes easiest to live with for a variety of reasons.

For me, I've owned speaker systems of all types. Lived with big Maggies, stats, big horns (trios), big ribbons (Genesis), and big/come and domes (Focal Utopia). Every type of system had its flaws, but they were also all musically enjoyable in different ways. Ultimately, while it is certainly fun to argue about the relative merits of speaker A vs speaker B. It's pointless venture. Find what you can afford, what you can live with, what your wife can live with lol, and go for it.

Every once in a while you may even surprise yourself. I was forced into downsizing my system due to moving. Although my current speakers are significantly cheaper that 90% of its predecessors, I'm finding that I'm enjoying my music as much as ever. It's going to take something I haven't heard yet to displace them.

Respectfully.....
 
Re: Dave Wilson's WAMM Master Chronosonic Loudspeaker Reaches For The Heavens

All true. But what is your basis for a system? Something that sounds simply pleasant or something that sounds pleasant and close to live? I don't think anyone would argue that plug and play speakers is the way to go. It's absolutely the whole system approach. I just find that at the cost no object level, you would be hard pressed to find a system where cone and domes are the speakers to beat out the best system in which Omnipolar or Horns are the speakers. The dynamics of horns are unmatched and it's dynamics which best represent live - IMO.


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Re: Dave Wilson's WAMM Master Chronosonic Loudspeaker Reaches For The Heavens

Mike said:
All true. But what is your basis for a system? Something that sounds simply pleasant or something that sounds pleasant and close to live? I don't think anyone would argue that plug and play speakers is the way to go. It's absolutely the whole system approach. I just find that at the cost no object level, you would be hard pressed to find a system where cone and domes are the speakers to beat out the best system in which Omnipolar or Horns are the speakers. The dynamics of horns are unmatched and it's dynamics which best represent live - IMO.


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well.....you can keep playing that tune.

or.....you can travel around with your bag of Lps and visit cone based and horn based systems and listen for yourself and (if you can control your biases) determine what total package gets most to the whole picture of the music. plan on spending years and getting on lots of airplanes.

you will find that there are so many moving parts to any system that the speakers are just one aspect. and not nearly as dominant as your present viewpoint embraces. I think that your opinions ignore what a room can do to close the gap between horns and cones.

otherwise it's just opinion and theory.
 
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