Subs for Ultra Fast Speakers

I was worried about this for my own setup, particularly because my main speakers are Janszen ZA1.1s (now known as Carmelitas) which are a combination electrostatic monopole matched to two 7" dynamic woofers. These gave me solid bass down to perhaps 40-45 Hz, but I wanted more full range, so I added a sealed SVS Ultra-13 subwoofer (now known as the SB-4000). My apartment space available limits me to only one, but I have been exceptionally impressed with how "fast" it is compared to my main speakers. I cannot tell where the sub is physically located in the room, even with it being located very close to the left speaker. Of course, having only one sub means I have to deal with room modes (which don't occur at my main listening position, but do if I decide to sit off-axis in my recliner), but since it's just me in the apartment, I'm not that worried about it.
 
Speed is more of a perception than a reality. A music passage at the recording has a certain speed or tempo. After reading the music info from the recording and by the time we hear the tempo at the speakers, it should be near impossible to exactly match the tempo of the music embedded in the recording. It should also be near impossible for any two playback systems to play a music passage at the exact same tempo, even if the playback systems appear identical.

The reason for this is distortions. Every system contains various distortions to one good degree or another. Distortions corrupt the fidelity of the input signal and the more distorted the playback presentation the more the music notes are less distinct seemingly run together and hence the slower the perceived tempo. Playback systems with less distortions make each musical note more distinct and separate from the next music note and therefore, the perception is a faster tempo.

I remember a reviewer out of TAS maybe 15 years ago when reviewing a CDP, ask the reader why does one component have a perceived faster tempo than another as he was concerned about this unit's perceived slow tempo. But cables can also change the perceived tempo just as does the noisy AC coming from the street.

Also, before I forget. Superior main speaker placement within the room has as much or more to do with perceived tempo as any/all other distortions. Finding the optimal location for your full-range speakers will have as much or more impact on bass than other distortions elsewhere as it is here where the fastest, tightest, deepest, and more well-defined bass is found and ultimately has a large impact on tempo.

Things really don't change much when it comes to lower frequencies, woofers, mains, and subs. The tempo at the speaker mains is basically WYHIWYG (What you hear is what you get whether fast or slow). The main speakers will generate a speed based entirely on their own placement, their own engineering, as well as the designed engineering and all the associated distortions generated from the speaker drivers back to the service panel.

Assuming we're talking well-enough designed/engineered subwoofers, hopefully we're not really talking so much about speed per se. Rather we're talking about getting the subwoofer's input signal to match or sync with the main speakers' input signal so that the music is flowing seamlessly into the room regardless of the frequencies.

Perhaps your speakers are well-positioned and your system induces less distortion than average, so you perceive your main speakers to be fast. But based on all the above, speed really should be irrelevant to your question. Hence, I suspect what you're really asking is, which subwoofers allow the greatest opportunity to match their speed or tempo to my main speakers, whether fast or slow? Or better yet, how do I increase my chances to match a given subwoofer to the sound from my mains?

If that is your real question (if not I apologize), then here's a few policies that I follow to increase the probability of properly syncing a sub(s) to the mains:

1. Ensure your interconnects or speaker cables to the sub are the exact same make and model used elsewhere in your system. Different cables induce different distortions and it just so happens that they also induce different tempos. Hence, using different cabling to the sub is a rather sure-fire way to almost guarantee a certain amount of disjointed sound.

2. If you're using aftermarket power cables, line conditioners, etc, elsewhere, then for the same reason as #1 above, you should do likewise with the sub. Remember that when trying to sync any 2 things everything matters and hopefully the days are gone where we've been taught that we can treat our subs different than the mains because they only handle the lowest frequencies, etc.

3. Ensure the subwoofer is well-anchored to the floor. Hopefully just like everything else in the playback chain already is. This has a good deal to do how musical the bass will be.

4. Though I've not tried it, I have my doubts about high-level inputs from the main amps to the sub. Among other things, this implies the input signal has already been processed through one amplifier, including its associated distortions, must now be processed through a second ampifier which also induces its own distortions. So not only are we talking doubling up on potential distortions at the sub induced by 2 amplifiers instead of one, we're also talking potential timing issues since the sub's input signal must be processed through 2 amplifiers instead of one. Yes, I realize some subwoofer companies like REL insist on high-level connections. But then REL also provides their own high-level subwoofer cables which IME is a big no-no. See #1 above.

5. Ensure your main full-range speakers are optimally placed within the room first before ever turning on the subwoofer. Once you're satisfied with the main speakers placement measured by how pleased you are with their musical bass, then it's time to syncronize the subwoofer.

6. Like the main speakers, ensure the subwoofer is optimally placed for fastest, tightest, deepest, most well-defined bass.

7. Buying the right subwoofer. Tee hee. By this I mean, to ensure that your subwoofer has enough of the right dials, knobs, and/or switches to configure and contour the bass to sync with the mains. The more levers and dials, I presume the greater the chances to match the mains.

In the end, it's all hit and miss. Your main speakers may be optimally positioned but your subwoofer is not. Or vice versa. And finding the optimal location for main speakers and subwoofer can be rather painstaking and sometimes seem impossible. Really, it's more art than science. But if the planets are in alignment and one is able to cross into the promised land where the bass is astonishly "quick", tight, deep, and well-defined and flat out musical, and merges beautifully with the mains, this alone will set a given playback system apart from most any other. Then again, with the right main full-range speakers and optmal placement, this same fabulously musical bass can also be achieved without a subwoofer at least down to 23Hz or so - depending on the main's range.

Hopefully, some of the bullet items I mentioned above can minimize some of the guesswork and pain associated with this most rewarding art.
 
Welcome to the forum, thank you for joining.​

iamnothe said:
Speed is more of a perception than a reality. A music passage at the recording has a certain speed or tempo. After reading the music info from the recording and by the time we hear the tempo at the speakers, it should be near impossible to exactly match the tempo of the music embedded in the recording. It should also be near impossible for any two playback systems to play a music passage at the exact same tempo, even if the playback systems appear identical.

The reason for this is distortions. Every system contains various distortions to one good degree or another. Distortions corrupt the fidelity of the input signal and the more distorted the playback presentation the more the music notes are less distinct seemingly run together and hence the slower the perceived tempo. Playback systems with less distortions make each musical note more distinct and separate from the next music note and therefore, the perception is a faster tempo.

I remember a reviewer out of TAS maybe 15 years ago when reviewing a CDP, ask the reader why does one component have a perceived faster tempo than another as he was concerned about this unit's perceived slow tempo. But cables can also change the perceived tempo just as does the noisy AC coming from the street.

Also, before I forget. Superior main speaker placement within the room has as much or more to do with perceived tempo as any/all other distortions. Finding the optimal location for your full-range speakers will have as much or more impact on bass than other distortions elsewhere as it is here where the fastest, tightest, deepest, and more well-defined bass is found and ultimately has a large impact on tempo.

Things really don't change much when it comes to lower frequencies, woofers, mains, and subs. The tempo at the speaker mains is basically WYHIWYG (What you hear is what you get whether fast or slow). The main speakers will generate a speed based entirely on their own placement, their own engineering, as well as the designed engineering and all the associated distortions generated from the speaker drivers back to the service panel.

Assuming we're talking well-enough designed/engineered subwoofers, hopefully we're not really talking so much about speed per se. Rather we're talking about getting the subwoofer's input signal to match or sync with the main speakers' input signal so that the music is flowing seamlessly into the room regardless of the frequencies.

Perhaps your speakers are well-positioned and your system induces less distortion than average, so you perceive your main speakers to be fast. But based on all the above, speed really should be irrelevant to your question. Hence, I suspect what you're really asking is, which subwoofers allow the greatest opportunity to match their speed or tempo to my main speakers, whether fast or slow? Or better yet, how do I increase my chances to match a given subwoofer to the sound from my mains?

If that is your real question (if not I apologize), then here's a few policies that I follow to increase the probability of properly syncing a sub(s) to the mains:

1. Ensure your interconnects or speaker cables to the sub are the exact same make and model used elsewhere in your system. Different cables induce different distortions and it just so happens that they also induce different tempos. Hence, using different cabling to the sub is a rather sure-fire way to almost guarantee a certain amount of disjointed sound.

2. If you're using aftermarket power cables, line conditioners, etc, elsewhere, then for the same reason as #1 above, you should do likewise with the sub. Remember that when trying to sync any 2 things everything matters and hopefully the days are gone where we've been taught that we can treat our subs different than the mains because they only handle the lowest frequencies, etc.

3. Ensure the subwoofer is well-anchored to the floor. Hopefully just like everything else in the playback chain already is. This has a good deal to do how musical the bass will be.

4. Though I've not tried it, I have my doubts about high-level inputs from the main amps to the sub. Among other things, this implies the input signal has already been processed through one amplifier, including its associated distortions, must now be processed through a second ampifier which also induces its own distortions. So not only are we talking doubling up on potential distortions at the sub induced by 2 amplifiers instead of one, we're also talking potential timing issues since the sub's input signal must be processed through 2 amplifiers instead of one. Yes, I realize some subwoofer companies like REL insist on high-level connections. But then REL also provides their own high-level subwoofer cables which IME is a big no-no. See #1 above.

5. Ensure your main full-range speakers are optimally placed within the room first before ever turning on the subwoofer. Once you're satisfied with the main speakers placement measured by how pleased you are with their musical bass, then it's time to syncronize the subwoofer.

6. Like the main speakers, ensure the subwoofer is optimally placed for fastest, tightest, deepest, most well-defined bass.

7. Buying the right subwoofer. Tee hee. By this I mean, to ensure that your subwoofer has enough of the right dials, knobs, and/or switches to configure and contour the bass to sync with the mains. The more levers and dials, I presume the greater the chances to match the mains.

In the end, it's all hit and miss. Your main speakers may be optimally positioned but your subwoofer is not. Or vice versa. And finding the optimal location for main speakers and subwoofer can be rather painstaking and sometimes seem impossible. Really, it's more art than science. But if the planets are in alignment and one is able to cross into the promised land where the bass is astonishly "quick", tight, deep, and well-defined and flat out musical, and merges beautifully with the mains, this alone will set a given playback system apart from most any other. Then again, with the right main full-range speakers and optmal placement, this same fabulously musical bass can also be achieved without a subwoofer at least down to 23Hz or so - depending on the main's range.

Hopefully, some of the bullet items I mentioned above can minimize some of the guesswork and pain associated with this most rewarding art.
Click to expand...
 
I agree with #5

Everything else depends on the system and which sub and sub amp is used. (Yes, most subs come with a dedicated amp - but not all, especially at the high end.)

iamnothe said:
Speed is more of a perception than a reality. A music passage at the recording has a certain speed or tempo. After reading the music info from the recording and by the time we hear the tempo at the speakers, it should be near impossible to exactly match the tempo of the music embedded in the recording. It should also be near impossible for any two playback systems to play a music passage at the exact same tempo, even if the playback systems appear identical.

The reason for this is distortions. Every system contains various distortions to one good degree or another. Distortions corrupt the fidelity of the input signal and the more distorted the playback presentation the more the music notes are less distinct seemingly run together and hence the slower the perceived tempo. Playback systems with less distortions make each musical note more distinct and separate from the next music note and therefore, the perception is a faster tempo.

I remember a reviewer out of TAS maybe 15 years ago when reviewing a CDP, ask the reader why does one component have a perceived faster tempo than another as he was concerned about this unit's perceived slow tempo. But cables can also change the perceived tempo just as does the noisy AC coming from the street.

Also, before I forget. Superior main speaker placement within the room has as much or more to do with perceived tempo as any/all other distortions. Finding the optimal location for your full-range speakers will have as much or more impact on bass than other distortions elsewhere as it is here where the fastest, tightest, deepest, and more well-defined bass is found and ultimately has a large impact on tempo.

Things really don't change much when it comes to lower frequencies, woofers, mains, and subs. The tempo at the speaker mains is basically WYHIWYG (What you hear is what you get whether fast or slow). The main speakers will generate a speed based entirely on their own placement, their own engineering, as well as the designed engineering and all the associated distortions generated from the speaker drivers back to the service panel.

Assuming we're talking well-enough designed/engineered subwoofers, hopefully we're not really talking so much about speed per se. Rather we're talking about getting the subwoofer's input signal to match or sync with the main speakers' input signal so that the music is flowing seamlessly into the room regardless of the frequencies.

Perhaps your speakers are well-positioned and your system induces less distortion than average, so you perceive your main speakers to be fast. But based on all the above, speed really should be irrelevant to your question. Hence, I suspect what you're really asking is, which subwoofers allow the greatest opportunity to match their speed or tempo to my main speakers, whether fast or slow? Or better yet, how do I increase my chances to match a given subwoofer to the sound from my mains?

If that is your real question (if not I apologize), then here's a few policies that I follow to increase the probability of properly syncing a sub(s) to the mains:

1. Ensure your interconnects or speaker cables to the sub are the exact same make and model used elsewhere in your system. Different cables induce different distortions and it just so happens that they also induce different tempos. Hence, using different cabling to the sub is a rather sure-fire way to almost guarantee a certain amount of disjointed sound.

2. If you're using aftermarket power cables, line conditioners, etc, elsewhere, then for the same reason as #1 above, you should do likewise with the sub. Remember that when trying to sync any 2 things everything matters and hopefully the days are gone where we've been taught that we can treat our subs different than the mains because they only handle the lowest frequencies, etc.

3. Ensure the subwoofer is well-anchored to the floor. Hopefully just like everything else in the playback chain already is. This has a good deal to do how musical the bass will be.

4. Though I've not tried it, I have my doubts about high-level inputs from the main amps to the sub. Among other things, this implies the input signal has already been processed through one amplifier, including its associated distortions, must now be processed through a second ampifier which also induces its own distortions. So not only are we talking doubling up on potential distortions at the sub induced by 2 amplifiers instead of one, we're also talking potential timing issues since the sub's input signal must be processed through 2 amplifiers instead of one. Yes, I realize some subwoofer companies like REL insist on high-level connections. But then REL also provides their own high-level subwoofer cables which IME is a big no-no. See #1 above.

5. Ensure your main full-range speakers are optimally placed within the room first before ever turning on the subwoofer. Once you're satisfied with the main speakers placement measured by how pleased you are with their musical bass, then it's time to syncronize the subwoofer.

6. Like the main speakers, ensure the subwoofer is optimally placed for fastest, tightest, deepest, most well-defined bass.

7. Buying the right subwoofer. Tee hee. By this I mean, to ensure that your subwoofer has enough of the right dials, knobs, and/or switches to configure and contour the bass to sync with the mains. The more levers and dials, I presume the greater the chances to match the mains.

In the end, it's all hit and miss. Your main speakers may be optimally positioned but your subwoofer is not. Or vice versa. And finding the optimal location for main speakers and subwoofer can be rather painstaking and sometimes seem impossible. Really, it's more art than science. But if the planets are in alignment and one is able to cross into the promised land where the bass is astonishly "quick", tight, deep, and well-defined and flat out musical, and merges beautifully with the mains, this alone will set a given playback system apart from most any other. Then again, with the right main full-range speakers and optmal placement, this same fabulously musical bass can also be achieved without a subwoofer at least down to 23Hz or so - depending on the main's range.

Hopefully, some of the bullet items I mentioned above can minimize some of the guesswork and pain associated with this most rewarding art.
Click to expand...
 
If you want subs for ultra-fast subs, you definitely want the Servo-sub kit from GR-Research:

http://gr-research.com/servosubkit3.aspx

Watch the YouTube video about them here.
https://youtu.be/1Q3QQPO7y04

Danny Richie of GR-Research is one of the pre-eminent loudspeaker designers in the USA and has won multiple awards from The Absolute Sound, "Best Speaker Regardless of Price", Best Sound at RMAF, etc. He has also designed and consulted for many loudspeaker companies.
 
Folks talk "fast subs" = integration, which is part of the equation. Essentially, fast is how quickly the driver responds and equally important, how quickly can it settle back down to rest, that IME is what dictates what we perceive as fast. Unfortunately if the sub is not integrated well and if the room is not properly treated that speed is often masked by room modes and long decay.

That said IME I've owned quite a few brand subs (Martin Logan, Rel, M&K, etc.) and I like JLA Fathom subwoofers. The sealed cabinet not only avoids the second output source via a port but also helps control the driver coupled with a high output amplifier. Ports and passive radiators are great - when you have enough room real estate to digest the additional output sources, but for most of us, the bass management becomes a mess. Also, while one sub is better than none, more subs are better. I currently employ a JLA QuaD which allows me great control over room modes.

Also, some folks say, "You shouldn't be able to hear your subs", well yes and no. You shouldn't be able to localize the bass emitted from the sub(s), but you certainly should hear the benefits via more even, more profound output (when the music calls for it) and a better sense of space and ease. Once you go subs integrated well, you won't go back! Enjoy!
 
the professor said:
When I said Wilson and Magico -- out of all the subs I've had and had many hours/days experience with. Those have integrated best with the most systems/rooms. Technically - they might measure as the slowest subs out there. Don't care. Ears will tell you that they work the best.
Click to expand...

yes, the sub wants to be done by the main speaker manufacture, drriven by the same amp as the main speaker. everything else is a missmatch
 
I don't agree

Yes - the main speaker manufacture might want to do a sub but - MOST don't invest the time and money in developing one unless its in the mega $$$$ category. Like $200,000 plus for the system.

Other subs can make a much much less costly speaker get to the same level as the most expensive systems.

have you ever listened to premium subs? with multiple main speakers? cause they work amazing well.
 
multiple main speakers? no i never did.

sure you can have luck and a sub will sound good with some speaker.
if you want it really right, it should be done as a whole....the speaker manufactor does the sub.

yes , i had subs and seen many subs in friends systems and eventually they all went off
 
I disagree. Good subs will work with any speaker, it's about placement and setup. I've heard Vivids, Magicos and Wilson XLFs with JLA Fathoms and all sounded fabulous, I've heard Rockport Arrakis with Rels sound equally great, there is no condition to use the same brand. Now, might there be a synergy added benefit? Possibly but doubtful IMO.
 
Never had a problem integrating JL Audio Fathoms. First one and then a second for a stereo pair. Dialing two in to the room was much trickier. I used a Bryston 10B-SUB crossover to alleviate the two way Sonus Faber Guarneri Mementos of the lowest octave that they struggled to reproduce. The crossover was between the amp and preamp so neither the amps nor the speakers saw anything below 65Hz (rolled off with 12dB per octave slope). Made the speakers sound more coherent overall with a very noticeable improvement in the midrange. Bass? Like they say in Brooklyn, "FUGGEDABOUTIT" Oh and the tube amp was also very happy with not doing the heavy work. The Fathoms were "fast" enough to keep up with the two way monitors. I would say the subs blended in a good 95-98% of the way into "seamless" integration.

All the well setup system I have ever heard with REL subs were also fantastic with no audible clues there were subs but the deep and articulate bass. I would not hesitate to go with REL either.
 
thedudeabides said:
Properly placed and tuned, the appropriate REL model can perform equal if not better than any sub available.
Click to expand...

The newer Rel subs are quite good but, better than any sub? Validated how? Compared to JL Audio? Magico? Wilson?
 
The tall Zu sub would be my first choice and is designed with high efficiency speakers. No need to pay more than that.
 
sb6 said:
The newer Rel subs are quite good but, better than any sub? Validated how? Compared to JL Audio? Magico? Wilson?
Click to expand...

Hi sb,

I believe we have traded comments on the MLOC site. I should have been more succinct. REL, like some manufacturers, offer product that excels in the cost / performance ratio.
 
I am finally convinced a properly integrated subwoofer is essential for all but a few very high end speakers having separate subwoofer towers.

In 2019 I bought a JL Audio F212v2 and the CR-1 crossover. JL Audio T/S helped me with positioning and setting the phase degree for my room. The subwoofer bass sounds like it's an integral part of my stereo system.

I'm now listening to music with a palpable low end that blends completely with the stereo speakers. And because my stereo amp has been relieved of supporting bass, the mids and highs from my stereo speakers has appreciable improved
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top