Streaming guidance needed

MPW

MPW

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Joined
Aug 3, 2017
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Sacramento, CA
Looking for some insight from forum members on my digital situation. My listening is almost exclusively via Qobuz through Roon. I stream from a Sonore opticalRendu to a Marantz SA-10 CD player/DAC via USB. I have a large legacy CD collection that I barely ever listen to as I primarily listen to new music. I am considering an upgrade to my digital setup and wanted to determine where to start. I started by comparing some of my CD’s to the Qobuz stream via Roon. I was disappointed to find out that many of them sound substantially worse via Qobuz/Roon than the CD. I understand that there are many variables here, but I’m trying to determine where I go next. Difficult to determine if the Marantz is weak via USB relative to CD playback or if the streamer is to blame. I understand there may file differences when streaming and that streaming can represent a compromise in itself (especially via Roon). So, where next?

Is it an upgraded streamer (Lumin, Sonore Signature Rendu, Aurender) and keep the Marantz? Is it a new DAC (Aqua, MSB) with better USB input capabilities? Is it a new streamer/DAC combo (Esoteric N-05XD, Lumin X1, Mola Mola Tambaqui, Rose 150B…)? I love the Roon interface and would like to keep it as my playback software if at all possible.

I would love to hear about any relevant experiences that may get help me get started.
 
crwilli said:
Budget?
Click to expand...

Haven’t really established one yet, but I would say no more than $15k total. Would certainly like to spend less and there are options like the Rose 150B that are way less. If I only upgraded my streamer I would expect that to be well under $15k as well.
 
I am in the same situation as you.
I have a large number of CD's, many not available online.
However I almost always listen via Cobuz or Tidal. Mostly due to the convience.
I would like to have some of my CD's on a hard drive.
While at AXPONA I looked into the INNUOS streamers. They have the ability to instantly "burn" a CD and internally store them.
Sound quality and feature function seem to be very good.
This option would require a DAC.
There are a lot of choices in streaming. Some have this connectivity some have this feature ETC ETC.
I can be difficult to find the "right" one for you.
Good luck in your search.
 
Morgan, the reality is, the USB input on the Marantz is likely more of a convenience input and not optimized fully.

We also must address the elephant in the room and that is, in our tests, the CD/Ripped CD always trumped the streaming version when used with a combination CD player/DAC. That being said, the streaming being high res and all the other things folks are doing (switches, ethernet cables, gigafoils, etc.) are making a big difference and bringing streaming much closer to the CD.

That being said, you need to ask yourself a tough question: will you be still wanting to play your CD’s? If the answer is yes, then considering a world class CD player might be the best way to go. Esoteric K-03XD + Innuos Zen MK3. You’re looking at approximately $16,849. This allows you to have a world class CD/SACD player with a great DAC (via USB) and a terrific music server with ripping capabilities and storage.

Going forward with the DAC/CD ripping option, as I see it, there are a couple of ways to go:

Aurender ACS10 + MSB Discrete/ProUSB. Done properly, you are probably looking at $18K, so a bit beyond your budget. Allows you to rip your CD’s, stream to the Discrete via the ProUSB.

The Esoteric N-05XD + Innuos Zenith mk3 puts the emphasis on streaming. The Innuos allows you to still rip your CD’s and stream to the N-05XD. The N-05XD nips at the heels of the N-01XD, but the bigger brother N-01XD still is more fleshed out, smoother, more natural. This combo will run you about $16K.

Innuos Zenith mk3 + MSB Discrete/ProUSB. Again, looking at $17k, but allows you to rip your CD’s, stream to the Discrete via ProUSB. The Discrete is my favorite stand alone DAC for the money….full stop….end of story. So natural and fleshed out. Sounds like tape! Also, keep in mind something MSB doesn’t market (and I’m not sure why), but with MSB you can upgrade to any DAC above and get 100% of your money back towards the upgrade.

Innuos Zenith mk3 + Aqua La Scala DAC. This solution gets you below your budget at $13,320. You could even opt for more storage in the Innuos Zenith mk3 and give yourself flexibility while still being under your budget. The La Scala is my favorite stand alone DAC under $10K. It has wonderful tonal richness (must be those two little tubes), great dimensionality and incredible musicality.

A more budget friendly solution that delivers amazing sound for the money is the HiFi Rose RS150 ($5000) + HiFi Rose RA780 (CD Ripper ($499) that works seamlessly with the HiFi Rose CD ripping software AND allows you to play directly from the CD player) + buy a 8TB Samsung SSD from Amazon (about $800????). HiFi Rose is a Roon endpoint, but requires a separate device for running Roon core. Sonically the HiFi Rose doesn’t have any bite or digititus. It’s smooth on top, nice soundstage depth and width and very neutral while never being tipped up.

With any of the Innuos solutions you can run Roon (and roon core from the same machine) or the Innuos software. You can switch seamlessly back and forth. I suspect you will prefer the new Innuos software.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
This is great input, thanks Mike. I’m suspecting that you are correct and that the Marantz USB input is not fully optimized. Might just start with a new DAC. The Rose 150B seems almost too good to be true. I saw it at AXPONA and the appearance and build quality is first rate. Would love to hear how it compares to some of these other products. Mainly concerned about sound quality, less about features.
 
MPW said:
This is great input, thanks Mike. I’m suspecting that you are correct and that the Marantz USB input is not fully optimized. Might just start with a new DAC. The Rose 150B seems almost too good to be true. I saw it at AXPONA and the appearance and build quality is first rate. Would love to hear how it compares to some of these other products. Mainly concerned about sound quality, less about features.
Click to expand...

The sound, especially when you turn off unused inputs and outputs, really jumps. You really feel it’s tremendous sound for the money.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
I would suggest the Lumin X1. With the Lumin you rip your CDs, and can stream the online music. Also, with the Lumin you don't need a DAC, DAC interconnect cable, and DAC power cord. That will save you at least $10K, and maybe more.
 
I purchased an Aqua La Scala dac from Mike recently, and it competes with far more expensive dacs, IMO.

At least for me, the most important thing is that it is exceptional in the musical involvement category.
 
Hi,
I used to find that CD sounded better than Streaming, but no longer. This works for me:
- Roon, running on a cheap NUC plugged into my network
- Mola Mola Tambaqui plugged into network
- I also have Project CD plugged into the Mila Mola DAC

House internet feed is about 10 m it’s/sec

Roon NUC connection to the DAC is about 400 m it’s/sec

Qobuz and Tidal sound really good.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
 
I know folks who have demoed the N05xd and found it a great piece. I heard it personally.
I know other who love the Aqua as well as Jim said above.
One thing is certain, Mike is an expert and will never steer you wrong!
 
MPW said:
Looking for some insight from forum members on my digital situation. My listening is almost exclusively via Qobuz through Roon. I stream from a Sonore opticalRendu to a Marantz SA-10 CD player/DAC via USB. I have a large legacy CD collection that I barely ever listen to as I primarily listen to new music. I am considering an upgrade to my digital setup and wanted to determine where to start. I started by comparing some of my CD’s to the Qobuz stream via Roon. I was disappointed to find out that many of them sound substantially worse via Qobuz/Roon than the CD. I understand that there are many variables here, but I’m trying to determine where I go next. Difficult to determine if the Marantz is weak via USB relative to CD playback or if the streamer is to blame. I understand there may file differences when streaming and that streaming can represent a compromise in itself (especially via Roon). So, where next?

Is it an upgraded streamer (Lumin, Sonore Signature Rendu, Aurender) and keep the Marantz? Is it a new DAC (Aqua, MSB) with better USB input capabilities? Is it a new streamer/DAC combo (Esoteric N-05XD, Lumin X1, Mola Mola Tambaqui, Rose 150B…)? I love the Roon interface and would like to keep it as my playback software if at all possible.

I would love to hear about any relevant experiences that may get help me get started.
Click to expand...

A few folks have mentioned devices that come with a ripper. However, if you own a computer, you can save yourself thousands of dollars (and do a better job in the process) by ripping your own CD.
Ripping is a one-time event. Once you have ripped your CD collection, you are done. Doing the ripping with equipment that you already own allows you to have more money to spend on a DAC or something else.

To do your own ripping, you will also need to purchase the right software. I personally recommend dBPoweramp ($68). With dBPoweramp you have the ability to modify the metadata which is particularly important if your CD collection includes classical recordings. I doubt that you will have that much flexibility with those all-in-one devices.

Since you are invested in digital and Roon, you might consider using DSP files with Roon to correct/modify your speaker-room interaction. You can have someone create those filters for you for less than $300. In my experience, the benefit that you can get from properly using DSP filters can outstrip (by far) the benefit you get from spending thousands on other digital devices or cables.

PS. I prefer listening to my streamed music (from Qobuz or ripped CDs) than my physical CDs. Two reasons for this:
1. I can use DSP filters on all streamed music which I cannot do when playing physical CDs, and
2. The convenience of being able to have all your music at your fingertips and not having to waste time trying to find a misplaced CD.
 
nicoff said:
A few folks have mentioned devices that come with a ripper. However, if you own a computer, you can save yourself thousands of dollars (and do a better job in the process) by ripping your own CD.
Ripping is a one-time event. Once you have ripped your CD collection, you are done. Doing the ripping with equipment that you already own allows you to have more money to spend on a DAC or something else.

To do your own ripping, you will also need to purchase the right software. I personally recommend dBPoweramp ($68). With dBPoweramp you have the ability to modify the metadata which is particularly important if your CD collection includes classical recordings. I doubt that you will have that much flexibility with those all-in-one devices.

Since you are invested in digital and Roon, you might consider using DSP files with Roon to correct/modify your speaker/room interaction. You can have someone create those filters for you for less than $300. In my experience, the benefit that you can get from properly using DSP filters can outstrip (by far) the benefit you get from spending thousands on other digital devices or cables.

PS. I prefer listening to my streamed music (from Qobuz or ripped CDs) than my physical CDs. Two reasons for this:
1. I can use DSP filters on all streamed music which I cannot do when playing physical CDs, and
2. The convenience of being able to have all your music at your fingertips and not having to waste time trying to find a misplaced CD.
Click to expand...
I totally agree with that. Give self ripping with your own pc a chance. i use by the way exact audio copy and convert everything slowly to flac.

both dbpoweramp and exact audio copy are the best rippers on the market. Eac is by the way free.

To my ears eac sounds much better better then roons ripper that goes a way to fast.
 
Agree with ripping using EAC. Once you have it tuned-in, the process is easy and results in excellent rips. With storage as cheap as it is these days select the highest quality/lowest compression options and, let-er-rip. Pun intended.

There’s another product - “AccurateRip” iirc - you can use after you rip to ensure your rip is bit-perfect.

I’m also generally not a fan of having a CD player/ripper inside my streamer/DAC; just seems that's the kind of thing we’re always trying to avoid; I’d rather see the $ put into the components that produce the sound, and not risk any kind of interference from non-sound-producing bits.

I’ve never been a fan of letting an appliance configure the rip for me, but that’s just the ocd geek in me probably.
 
+1 to the above. If your computer doesn't have a CD player, buy an external one (they're cheap) and rip your collection using EAC. Then spend the money on a descent DAC/Streamer. I have the Lumin X1 and it's great, but there are many good options out there for less than your budget.
 
Talking about storage, the
best way is to use two SSD's, one for the OS and one for the music. And for the SSD's there are ones that can store multiple bits/ cell. Something that you want to avoid. The preferred SSDs are the SLC's that store 1 bit / cell, for instance the Samsung 970 pro
 
This is what I would do.
Buy a new Kaleidescape K-system 120 on eBay for $449 and import your whole CD collection. The Kaleidescape ecosystem does impressive stuff with seamlessly managing your content.
Connect the Kaleidescape to the N05XD and you're done. Pre-amp, streaming, CD playback, content management and a slick control interface.
The main drawback with this suggestion is the K-system 120 is a legacy product and you can't buy replacement HDD's any more. So if a HDD goes kaput you are snookered and the effort to import all that content is wasted. But it will be the best $449 you ever spent to play a ripped bit perfect copy of a CD.
 
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