Streamer selection

Mikado463 said:
Randy / professor Scharf, thank you both ! Next time over I'll have my son bring over a long enough ethernet cable to lie on the floor and see if the connectivity / pairing of the two is the issue and if so I'll go from there...........
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I do actually have wi-fi on my server. It is not used for music. My audio signal never goes through wi-fi (or any network) for play back. The wi-fi is used exclusively for Roon updates and Roon control from my Microsoft Surface tablet.

When I spent a few months at my buddies house waiting for final retirement and move to join my wife at our new house, we experimented a bit. He paid a fairly large amount to have "special" ethernet cables install in his house to connect both of his Lumins to his two systems. I was able to demonstrate how much better music played from internal drives on his server versus those pulled across the network from his NAS. We also tried hooking the server directly to his main DAC on his main Luxman system. There was no comparison. The files played from internal drives connected directly to the DAC were far superior.

Since he also enjoys Qobuz he still listens to the streaming service through the system.

He is currently replacing his Roon Nucleus server with a custom built server built virtually identical to the Taiko servers, arguably the finest music servers in the world. He is planning his setup to have the server directly connected to his main DAC and using a Lumin as a connection to his second system.
 
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Sounds good, Dave. Once you decide on what type of implementation you want to go with, just a note that for long runs, fiber is a lot easier to route and install (as well as less expensive and intrusive) than long runs of Ethernet cable. Also, if you decide to use fiber, I can provide you with specs for the specific type of fiber and FMCs I’ve found to sound the best. Lastly, I’d really recommend reading the white paper by John Swenson I linked to above. It provides a key and important foundational understanding for this application. Cheers.
 
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Cheer Dave and I 100% agree with Puma about doing your research to setup your system the best for your use. We all have different wants and needs and Puma certainly has a high level of expertise in his type of setup. One word of warning with fiber optic cabling. You have to be careful to not bend the cables too tightly. It can stop the light signal from traveling through. Ethernet is not as subject to these type of bends in the cable. Optical does certainly have faster and quality passing of signal as long as you make sure to have the finest optical converters you can get.
 
Dave, here’s an excellent video by Sternholm Reviews on the importance of room acoustics for an audio system, along with data from his acoustical engineer. His guidance and the data presented are right on point, in my experience.

 
Randy Myers said:
Cheer Dave and I 100% agree with Puma about doing your research to setup your system the best for your use. We all have different wants and needs and Puma certainly has a high level of expertise in his type of setup. One word of warning with fiber optic cabling. You have to be careful to not bend the cables too tightly. It can stop the light signal from traveling through. Ethernet is not as subject to these type of bends in the cable. Optical does certainly have faster and quality passing of signal as long as you make sure to have the finest optical converters you can get.
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Randy makes some good points about routing optical fiber. I’ve got mine running from the RSR to the audio rack along the wall baseboards clipped with the little 3M plastic clips mounted with the matching small 3M Command adhesive strips and the bends are gentle enough i’ve not encountered any failure modes.

On another note, really recommend you check out the video I’ve linked to above on room acoustics. Cheers.
 
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Puma Cat said:
On another note, really recommend you check out the video I’ve linked to above on room acoustics. Cheers.
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Interesting video, thanks Stephen. My room (14'6" x 24'6" x 8'), while not perfect is actually quite good, I've incorporated bass trapping in all four corners(GIK front / DIY rears) combined with lined drapes on the windows.

stereo seating position.JPG
 
Randy Myers said:
There are pros and cons to everything. I understand your point about crap switches, however I also believe that adding any extra components to the chain also comes with other challenges. No matter how you look at it, the signal is going to come through your router so it makes sense to get the best you can. Also, prior to the signal arriving at your home, how many crap routers and switches has the signal gone through? Thousands, tens of thousands? Yes, a better switch can stop further derogation to the signal if a switch is required, but no component can bring back what has been lost, period. Adding additional components to your setup does not bring back what was lost prior in the chain.

This is one of many reasons that I play all of my digital music straight from internal M.2 and SSD drives on my server, connected directly to my DAC. I will take a DSD512 signal coming out of my server through a USB re-clocker (powered by a power conditioner for wall warts) straight to my DAC, through T+A in house DSD circuits output through high end balanced cables into my pre-amp, over any setup required "high-end" switches.

SSD/M.2 -> quality USB cable -> USB Re-clocker -> DAC -> quality balanced cables -> pre-amplifier -> quality balanced cables -> amplifiers (speakers/headphone amps) -> speakers/headphones

Also, there are pros and cons to optical. Yes the optical signal travels better through the cable than an electrical signal travelling through an ethernet cable, however it does come with another consideration. The digital signal has to be converted to an optical signal (light signal) prior to transmission. The signal then needs to be converted back from the "light" signal to the electrical digital signal to be processed.
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with no component can bring back what is lost, you say that data is changed with internet: actually you are saying with that data is altered by the servers routers and switches in between which will mean that the modern internet could not exist

The reason I don‘t know but in this specific case I make an exception to the rule less = more. an extra audiophilic switch especially with a dedicated LPS, gives a better sound.
 
NewAlkyogre said:
with no component can bring back what is lost, you say that data is changed with internet: actually you are saying with that data is altered by the servers routers and switches in between which will mean that the modern internet could not exist

The reason I don‘t know but in this specific case I make an exception to the rule less = more. an extra audiophilic switch especially with a dedicated LPS, gives a better sound.
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I was an IT guy, software engineer actually. I always felt that it is all ones and zeros, so how could any of this stuff matter... Well I was wrong, it does. It does make a difference. Now as far as the Internet goes, your way of thinking is my old way of its all 1's and 0's, so as long as the signal gets there then it should all be the same. But in digital audio it simply does not work that way. The 1's and 0's get there through various bit checking error routines, etc., but there is far more going on with music than just getting the 1's and 0's. Timing issues, clocking, etc. makes huge differences and there is no way streaming can keep it all perfect... just simple facts.

The reasoning that was being put forth is that the router sucks and you need a switch to help. What I am saying is that on any streaming music it is going through hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of routers and switches before it arrives at your home... that one little switch, even if you pay thousands of dollars for it, can not make up for what was lost in the pathing to your house. Network equipment is not great for digital audio, and multiple that thousands of times.......

If you want to stream that is fine, but realize you are loosing sound quality... even playing across your own network looses quality versus playing the files stored locally on your server. It is a fact, pure and simple. But the bottom line to each their own. Many people enjoy the vast amount of music available through streaming. I prefer the improved sound performance playing files from local M.2 drives on my server.

Now if you are playing a music stream from files on your network through ethernet (not straight from locally stored files on server itself) then I could definitely see how this switch could help.
 
Over the years there has been a lot of misinformation about digital audio out there.

The following article addresses most of them (with facts):

archimago.blogspot.com

MUSINGS / DEMO: Why "Bits Are Bits". Let's not add unnecessary fear, uncertainty, and doubt.

A blog for audiophiles about more objective topics. Measurements of audio gear. Reasonable, realistic, no snakeoil assessment of sound, and equipment.
archimago.blogspot.com archimago.blogspot.com

TL;DR? Folks will have their own perceptions, but bits are still bits
 
Randy Myers said:
I was an IT guy, software engineer actually. I always felt that it is all ones and zeros, so how could any of this stuff matter... Well I was wrong, it does. It does make a difference. Now as far as the Internet goes, your way of thinking is my old way of its all 1's and 0's, so as long as the signal gets there then it should all be the same. But in digital audio it simply does not work that way. The 1's and 0's get there through various bit checking error routines, etc., but there is far more going on with music than just getting the 1's and 0's. Timing issues, clocking, etc. makes huge differences and there is no way streaming can keep it all perfect... just simple facts.

The reasoning that was being put forth is that the router sucks and you need a switch to help. What I am saying is that on any streaming music it is going through hundreds, thousands, tens of thousands of routers and switches before it arrives at your home... that one little switch, even if you pay thousands of dollars for it, can not make up for what was lost in the pathing to your house. Network equipment is not great for digital audio, and multiple that thousands of times.......

If you want to stream that is fine, but realize you are loosing sound quality... even playing across your own network looses quality versus playing the files stored locally on your server. It is a fact, pure and simple. But the bottom line to each their own. Many people enjoy the vast amount of music available through streaming. I prefer the improved sound performance playing files from local M.2 drives on my server.

Now if you are playing a music stream from files on your network through ethernet (not straight from locally stored files on server itself) then I could definitely see how this switch could help.
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jitter.jpg

The problem is this: jitter. What I am saying is that somehow this issue need to be tackled, because this is clearly a problem in music. What I am saying that the music input with streaming on that is already wrong. That with streaming a lot can go wrong we agree, and that a storage on an m2 SSD is the better solution also.

Sometimes, streaming is more then listening what you have stored: you also like to find new music and preferable in the best sound quality possible. In those cases, something need to be improved with that jitter. The ones and zero's simply need better timing and extra electronics for that is sadly a thing that need to be added, Else you use the modem/router from the ISP as premium source and that is the last thing you want.
 
NewAlkyogre said:
View attachment 34064

The problem is this: jitter. What I am saying is that somehow this issue need to be tackled, because this is clearly a problem in music. What I am saying that the music input with streaming on that is already wrong. That with streaming a lot can go wrong we agree, and that a storage on an m2 SSD is the better solution also.

Sometimes, streaming is more then listening what you have stored: you also like to find new music and preferable in the best sound quality possible. In those cases, something need to be improved with that jitter. The ones and zero's simply need better timing and extra electronics for that is sadly a thing that need to be added, Else you use the modem/router from the ISP as premium source and that is the last thing you want.
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Jitter is no longer a problem with digital audio. It was 20 years ago but not today.
Any modern equipment can manage jitter. If interested in an objective discussion of jitter, the link that I posted above addresses jitter as well.
 
nicoff said:
Jitter is no longer a problem with digital audio. It was 20 years ago but not today.
Any modern equipment can manage jitter. If interested in an objective discussion of jitter, the link that I posted above addresses jitter as well.
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And ones are ones and zero‘s are zero‘s. This would mean that in the absence of jitter every modern streamer sound the same and that is absolutely not true.
 
For the past 12+ years, I was using a legacy Squeezebox Touch in my primary setup. It's native DAC was "OK" for casual listening, but I subsequently upgraded to outboard DAC's... first a Benchmark, then Resonessence, and finally a Bel Canto DAC 3.5 MKii (all connected via Coax).

I've now replaced my SB Touch with a Wiim Ultra ($329), with asynchronous USB out to a Topping E70 Velvet DAC ($349), which uses the AKM 4499 chipset. Despite being an inexpensive ChiFi combination, this current setup, with no "audiophile" grade switches, cables, or voodoo, is, IMHO, the best sounding streaming setup I've ever had. I have no desire to try higher priced components at this time. However, being an audiophile, I know I eventually will. :)
 
NewAlkyogre said:
And ones are ones and zero‘s are zero‘s. This would mean that in the absence of jitter every modern streamer sound the same and that is absolutely not true.
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Just some additional for the gang In the interest of accuracy with respect to the engineering of these devices.

The actual signal from digital music playback devices is not 1's and 0's. That is only how the data is encoded on the disc or file. The actual signal is an analog square wave voltage, and as such, is susceptible to noise factors including low-source and high-source leakage impedance current,. and threshold jitter (which is not the same as deterministic jitter). Threshold jitter can have a notable impact on Timing, which our brains are exquisitely sensitive to when listening to music. Our brains can actually detect timing errors in the picosecond time-domain, which is why femtoclocks are required for audio-grade digital music playback devices. There's an excellent article on this very topic by John Swenson, the EE who developed EtherREGEN and also worked as a professional Ethernet engineer for Broadcom and Cisco during his professional career. So, respectfully, John really knows this domain of electrical engineering. For the gang's reference, here is a link to a white paper written by John Swenson on this very subject. My recommendation is for anyone who has not read this white paper, to do so, as it is very informative and accurate.

https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/0...enson_EtherREGEN_white_paper.pdf?v=1583429386

Cheers and best regards, gang.
 
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sleepysurf said:
For the past 12+ years, I was using a legacy Squeezebox Touch in my primary setup. It's native DAC was "OK" for casual listening, but I subsequently upgraded to outboard DAC's... first a Benchmark, then Resonessence, and finally a Bel Canto DAC 3.5 MKii (all connected via Coax).

I've now replaced my SB Touch with a Wiim Ultra ($329), with asynchronous USB out to a Topping E70 Velvet DAC ($349), which uses the AKM 4499 chipset. Despite being an inexpensive ChiFi combination, this current setup, with no "audiophile" grade switches, cables, or voodoo, is, IMHO, the best sounding streaming setup I've ever had. I have no desire to try higher priced components at this time. However, being an audiophile, I know I eventually will. :)
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My recommendation would be, at some point, to try an EtherREGEN ethernet switch, as it will sound even better.

Moreover, a Shunyata Ethernet cable connecting your router to the network switch (ideally, EtherREGEN) and/or the network switch to the music server will take it yet again to another level.

Same for the USB cable from the Wiim to your Topping DAC. BTW, the new "entry-level" Gemini Ethernet and USB cables from Shunyata are amazing (I have a full loom in for a review I'm presently writing). Very impressed with them.

And, most respectfully, none of this is voodoo, it's sound engineering best practices (no pun intended).

Cheers and regards.
 
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Puma Cat said:
Just some additional for the gang In the interest of accuracy with respect to the engineering these devices.

The actual signal from digital music playback devices is not 1's and 0's. That is only how the data is encoded on the disc or file. The actual signal is an analog square wave voltage, and as such, is susceptible to noise factors including low-source and high-source leakage impedance current,. and threshold jitter (which is not the same as deterministic jitter). Threshold jitter can have a notable impact on Timing, which our brains are exquisitely sensitive to when listening to music. Our brains can actually detect timing errors in the picosecond time-domain, which is why femtoclocks are required for audio-grade digital music playback devices. There's an excellent article on this very topic by John Swenson, the EE who developed EtherREGEN and also worked as a professional Ethernet engineer for Broadcom and Cisco during his professional career. So, respectfully, John really knows this domain of electrical engineering. For the gang's reference, here is a link to a white paper written by John Swenson on this very subject. My recommendation is for anyone who has not read this white paper, to do so, as it is very informative and accurate.

Understanding how perturbations on digital signals can affect sound quality without changing bits, and how these issues are addressed by the UpTone EtherREGEN.

Cheers and best regards, gang.
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