Speakers for tubes

KeithR said:
it seems like most of the en vogue speakers are more SS oriented.
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Keith - I would agree. This is one of the reasons I love Focal. Besides being a brilliant leading speaker design and engineering company, their underlying philosophy is efficiency = life like dynamics. Most modern design concepts and materials look great on paper, but in reality require a lot more power to achieve the same level of dynamics as an efficient speaker.

There are still a lot of great speakers, like the ones Cyril listed that are tube friendly.

What speakers are on your "next to audition" list?



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KeithR said:
In my recent speaker auditions and after reading numerous JA measurements, I've discovered that there aren't many tube-friendly speakers out there. Look at this "hot" list of speakers below (created off the top of my head):

Magico
YG Acoustics
Rockport
Vivid
TAD
Revel
Raidho
Wilson (Alexia and Sasha)

These speakers for the most part mandate SS amplification. Even some of the latest Wilsons are more difficult to drive- which wasn't the case years ago. What tube-friendly speakers are out there these days- Focal and Sonus Faber?
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My VAC's sound wonderful on my Q3's as they do on my Raidho's too. I am not so sure about this assessment.
 
I suspect it depends on the size of the tube amps in question. Something like the big CJ's, AR's, VAC's etc. should drive most anything if you can take the heat. The heat is the main reason my tube mono's stay put away for all of the year save the two "cold months."
 
Bobolaclune said:
My VAC's sound wonderful on my Q3's as they do on my Raidho's too. I am not so sure about this assessment.
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And the big Focals too. :) Several people on line here (IIRC Priaptor) also use VAC with the big MBL 101E Mk.2.

Don't forget VTL either that is used with Focal and Wilson too. I think Albert Porter at one time used the VTL amps and currently uses ARC on the mega Focals too. Brooks Berdan also used Jadis tubes with Wilson. CJ uses Wilson as their reference speaker at the factory.

Revel doesn't count since more often than not they usually show with ML since they are all part of the Harman empire.

Vivid and Avalon (how quickly people forget this speaker line) have shown with CAT many times. Leon out on the Island uses the big VACs on the big Vivids as well as the $400k Perfect 8 speakers.

TAD also usually shows with their own electronics but the TADs have sounded very good with Zesto tube amps as well as ARC when I heard them a couple of years ago in LA.

And Carl always shows his NOLAs with ARC.

So I don't think the original contention holds up to scrutiny.
 
Paul said:
Can't believe no one mention the Living Voice . Super speakers :)
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Paul...I did in Post #2. They are in my list of tube-friendly speakers. However, Keith is looking at the more establishes speaker lines often reviewed in TAS and Stereophile. Living Voice has a limited presence in the US.
 
Mike said:
Keith - I would agree. This is one of the reasons I love Focal. Besides being a brilliant leading speaker design and engineering company, their underlying philosophy is efficiency = life like dynamics. Most modern design concepts and materials look great on paper, but in reality require a lot more power to achieve the same level of dynamics as an efficient speaker.

There are still a lot of great speakers, like the ones Cyril listed that are tube friendly.

What speakers are on your "next to audition" list?



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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.


Hello Mike ,

I think you meant to say sensitivity not efficiency, you can a high sensitivity speaker that is less efficient than another with the same sensitivity.


Low powered tubes are best with high sensitivity , high efficiency speakers....



Regards
.
 
Myles B. Astor said:
And the big Focals too. :) Several people on line here (IIRC Priaptor) also use VAC with the big MBL 101E Mk.2.

Don't forget VTL either that is used with Focal and Wilson too. I think Albert Porter at one time used the VTL amps and currently uses ARC on the mega Focals too. Brooks Berdan also used Jadis tubes with Wilson. CJ uses Wilson as their reference speaker at the factory.

Revel doesn't count since more often than not they usually show with ML since they are all part of the Harman empire.

Vivid and Avalon (how quickly people forget this speaker line) have shown with CAT many times. Leon out on the Island uses the big VACs on the big Vivids as well as the $400k Perfect 8 speakers.

TAD also usually shows with their own electronics but the TADs have sounded very good with Zesto tube amps as well as ARC when I heard them a couple of years ago in LA.

And Carl always shows his NOLAs with ARC.

So I don't think the original contention holds up to scrutiny.
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what's that? that Magico and similar popular speakers aren't tube friendly? I think that's pretty true. 86/87db, 4ohm speakers really aren't "tube-friendly." there are always exceptions, and i think choosing large, tube monoblocks to run on an inefficient speaker is VERY different than being a tube-friendly speaker.

I've been to Alberts recently - he sold his big VTLs for ARC 250s and I suggested an ARC Ref 75 despite his large room.

Wilson as I mentioned in my first post is hit or miss- Alexias are known to be be power hungry speakers. And the Sasha seems to be difficult as well in the bass:

"Wilson specifies the Sasha's voltage sensitivity as 91dB/2.83V/m, which was confirmed by my own measurements. This is usefully higher than average. On the other hand, the Sasha's plot of impedance magnitude and electrical phase (fig.1) reveals the speaker to be a demanding load for the partnering amplifier to drive. Not only does the impedance drop below 4 ohms for most of the lower midrange and upper bass, with a minimum value of 2 ohms at 86Hz, but there is also an amplifier-unfriendly combination of 3 ohms and –43° phase angle at 61Hz.."

Vivid does indeed seem to be a bit more tube friendly than the rest I mentioned.
 
KeithR said:
what's that? that Magico and similar popular speakers aren't tube friendly? I think that's pretty true. 86/87db, 4ohm speakers really aren't "tube-friendly." there are always exceptions, and i think choosing large, tube monoblocks to run on an inefficient speaker is VERY different than being a tube-friendly speaker.

I've been to Alberts recently - he sold his big VTLs for ARC 250s and I suggested an ARC Ref 75 despite his large room.

Wilson as I mentioned in my first post is hit or miss- Alexias are known to be be power hungry speakers. And the Sasha seems to be difficult as well in the bass:

"Wilson specifies the Sasha's voltage sensitivity as 91dB/2.83V/m, which was confirmed by my own measurements. This is usefully higher than average. On the other hand, the Sasha's plot of impedance magnitude and electrical phase (fig.1) reveals the speaker to be a demanding load for the partnering amplifier to drive. Not only does the impedance drop below 4 ohms for most of the lower midrange and upper bass, with a minimum value of 2 ohms at 86Hz, but there is also an amplifier-unfriendly combination of 3 ohms and –43° phase angle at 61Hz.."

Vivid does indeed seem to be a bit more tube friendly than the rest I mentioned.
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And Nick Doshi's tube amps have no problem driving the Alexia's or Sasha's and many people here commented on how great that combo was RMAF.
 
KeithR said:
what's that? that Magico and similar popular speakers aren't tube friendly? I think that's pretty true. 86/87db, 4ohm speakers really aren't "tube-friendly." there are always exceptions, and i think choosing large, tube monoblocks to run on an inefficient speaker is VERY different than being a tube-friendly speaker.

I've been to Alberts recently - he sold his big VTLs for ARC 250s and I suggested an ARC Ref 75 despite his large room.

Wilson as I mentioned in my first post is hit or miss- Alexias are known to be be power hungry speakers. And the Sasha seems to be difficult as well in the bass:

"Wilson specifies the Sasha's voltage sensitivity as 91dB/2.83V/m, which was confirmed by my own measurements. This is usefully higher than average. On the other hand, the Sasha's plot of impedance magnitude and electrical phase (fig.1) reveals the speaker to be a demanding load for the partnering amplifier to drive. Not only does the impedance drop below 4 ohms for most of the lower midrange and upper bass, with a minimum value of 2 ohms at 86Hz, but there is also an amplifier-unfriendly combination of 3 ohms and –43° phase angle at 61Hz.."

Vivid does indeed seem to be a bit more tube friendly than the rest I mentioned.
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It really doesn't help to pick out the worst looking number you can find. My Q3's are 90db@4ohms , S5's are 89db & S3's are 88. These are not astonishingly insensitive speakers & much depends on current not watts. Many tube amps deliver current in spades . Wilson often shows with 22W Lamm ML2.2's to great acclaim and I've heard Q5's driven with aplomb by the same amps. Perhaps you need to be more specific since "tube amps"is like saying "cars" . You seem to have something very specific in mind, like a flea powered SET though even the Lamm is an SET capable of driving pretty much most speakers.
 
a.wayne said:
.


Hello Mike ,

I think you meant to say sensitivity not efficiency, you can a high sensitivity speaker that is less efficient than another with the same sensitivity.


Low powered tubes are best with high sensitivity , high efficiency speakers....



Regards
.
Click to expand...

Yes, you are correct. Thanks for correcting me.
 
Paul said:
Can't believe no one mention the Living Voice . Super speakers :)
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Don't they also cost a bazillion dollars?

Keith - the Acoustic Zen speakers always sound great (in all these supposed bad show rooms) and they seem rather tube friendly.
 
Mike said:
Don't they also cost a bazillion dollars?

Keith - the Acoustic Zen speakers always sound great (in all these supposed bad show rooms) and they seem rather tube friendly.
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The Auditorium lines are very reasonable except the Olympian :)
 
cmalak said:
Paul...I did in Post #2. They are in my list of tube-friendly speakers. However, Keith is looking at the more establishes speaker lines often reviewed in TAS and Stereophile. Living Voice has a limited presence in the US.
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Yeah.... I missed it . Great suggestion !
 
Good post. Current matters alot.

Bobolaclune said:
much depends on current not watts. Many tube amps deliver current in spades . Wilson often shows with 22W Lamm ML2.2's to great acclaim and I've heard Q5's driven with aplomb by the same amps. Perhaps you need to be more specific since "tube amps"is like saying "cars" . You seem to have something very specific in mind, like a flea powered SET though even the Lamm is an SET capable of driving pretty much most speakers.
Click to expand...
 
Bobolaclune said:
It really doesn't help to pick out the worst looking number you can find. My Q3's are 90db@4ohms , S5's are 89db & S3's are 88. These are not astonishingly insensitive speakers & much depends on current not watts. Many tube amps deliver current in spades . Wilson often shows with 22W Lamm ML2.2's to great acclaim and I've heard Q5's driven with aplomb by the same amps. Perhaps you need to be more specific since "tube amps"is like saying "cars" . You seem to have something very specific in mind, like a flea powered SET though even the Lamm is an SET capable of driving pretty much most speakers.
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Thanks for the feedback, Bob- although I have been specific that tube-friendly should be a 100w amp. Magico inflates their specs as they measure sensitivity into a 4 ohm load, not the standard 8 ohm one. And the Q5 measured at 84db, so I'm not cherry picking :) The Q3 and S5 are around 87dbs, although I've heard the S5 is actually easier to drive. Martin Colloms says in his S5 review that the S5 prefers SS amplification but for tube needs 200+ tube watts/15A.

I certainly don't believe SET and Q5s is acceptable. As SET distortion increases with power, probably means 5%+ distortion is common at average levels on Q5s. Ralph Karsten suggests the speaker be able to be driven at 20% of SET rated power to avoid audible distortion- on the Lamms that is 2W. 2W into a 84db speaker isn't enough.

I should also clarify that I'm pretty sensitive to dynamics and ease having lived with high efficiency speakers for 6 years. Funny story- after a recent S5/Vac demo, I went to a Shindo night- 100db Shindo Latour speakers on 18W amps in a similar size space. Much, much more effortless, dynamic sound compared to 450W amps on the 87db Magicos. Now that's only one component of sound, but go figure.
 
anyways, I really don't want to debate the efficiency game. i was just making an observation that most of the en vogue speakers are slanted towards SS and if there were any tube friendly speakers for folks. we were able to come up with several:

Focal
Sonus Faber
Tannoy
Devore Fidelity
Nola
Evolution Acoustics
Wilson (certain models)
 
"anyways, I really don't want to debate the efficiency game."
All evidence to the contrary.....

Quite the tiresome conversation. Bottom line I prefer not to read reviews but to let my ears tell me what's happening. Weird approach I know but it works for me







 
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