Speaker /amp incompatibility

[atmasphere]

Hello all,
Is there any reasonable explanation why a Luxman L-590AXII and a pair of Focal Sopra 1 speakers would absolutely not work well together? I have this pairing and after 12 months of fighting with a every minute possibility to improve things, I'm giving up and one of the two will have to go.
Electrically speaking, the 2 units are not blatantly at odds: the 590AXII may be only 30/60W in Class A but then shifts to AB to an even higher output rating, and the PS is purportedly a +/- 600VA beast.
The Sopras aren't necessarily an easy load but at 89db, 8 ohms nominal with a lowest dip at 3,9 ohms it shouldn't be mission impossible...
However, the main complaint is a mushy, boomy, one-note, droning, ill-intentioned, undisciplined and basically horrific bass response and an overall flat and lifeless sound.
Room is the same 4x8m listening space since 26 years. 8 GIK panels installed. Changed every imaginable cable combination under the sun, atleast 50 times. Changed sources as well, speaker position, isolation feet under electronics...you name it.
The only changed variable was the Luxman. 3 generations of previous Naim amplification worked infinitely better, so did Musical Fidelity.
Any miraculous advice or suggestions on which to keep and which to get rid of?
Thanks you!
David

Your description of the bass is a dead ringer for a standing wave in the room.

The best way to fix that is with multiple subs. The Audiokinesis Swarm is intended specifically for this sort of thing- and they are intended to operate placed directly against the wall, which is helpful if its a smaller room. They have to be asymmetrically placed so as to break up the standing waves. Its also important to make sure they don't have any output above 80Hz so as to not attract attention to themselves.

Bass below 80Hz in your room is 100% reverberant, since at 80Hz the waveform is 14 feet long. It takes a few iterations of the waveform before your ear can know what the bass note is and by that time the bass has bounced all over the room.

So a mono bass signal can be sent to all the subs if its kept low enough.

The ear has a built-in tone control. If the bass is missing, the highs will be messed up too- usually too bright. Conversely if there is too much bass the highs will sound muffled. So getting the bass right is important, which a speaker like yours cannot do on its own. So you need the subs.

I had a similar problem in my room but because my main speakers are flat to 20Hz I only needed a pair of subs to break up the standing waves. Once that was done I found the mids and highs to be more relaxed and seemingly more vivacious, the latter of which I did not expect.

 

[David60]

@chops
This amplifier produces the published Class A power as you kindly copy/pasted but up to 95w at 8ohms and 165w at 4 ohms as tested by Ken Kessler and Paul Miller in HiFi News a few years back. This is common knowledge for those who have interest in this amplifier and has been previously referenced on this forum as well. With an output transformer of 600VA there should be no lack of current either. Anyway, I will have the amplifier tested to make sure it is indeed performing according to spec, which I do suspect, in which case I may look for a better speaker/room match. Nobody could pay me enough to go back to Naim! (Supernait2, Supernait3, 282, 250, HCDR. nDAC, XPS2, ND5XS2).

 

[jadedavid]

As an experiment, Have you tried reversing the speaker cable polarity at the speakers?

 

[tube-vds]

Ok, you write about an amp incompatibility, but I think it's a speaker <-> room problem.

The speaker is too small for your 8x4m room.

Try the bigger Focal speaker series and you might be surprised what happens.

my 2 ct.

 

[atmasphere]

@chops
This amplifier produces the published Class A power as you kindly copy/pasted but up to 95w at 8ohms and 165w at 4 ohms as tested by Ken Kessler and Paul Miller in HiFi News a few years back.

Did you try reversing the phase on one speaker just to make sure your speakers are in phase?

 

[Dizzie]

Did you try reversing the phase on one speaker just to make sure your speakers are in phase?

You may have a test CD or two with a track to test phase. I always do a test of L/R and phase using a test CD after I make an amp or speaker swap.

 

[chops]

@chops
This amplifier produces the published Class A power as you kindly copy/pasted but up to 95w at 8ohms and 165w at 4 ohms as tested by Ken Kessler and Paul Miller in HiFi News a few years back. This is common knowledge for those who have interest in this amplifier and has been previously referenced on this forum as well. With an output transformer of 600VA there should be no lack of current either. Anyway, I will have the amplifier tested to make sure it is indeed performing according to spec, which I do suspect, in which case I may look for a better speaker/room match. Nobody could pay me enough to go back to Naim! (Supernait2, Supernait3, 282, 250, HCDR. nDAC, XPS2, ND5XS2).

Okay, well I stand corrected. I was only going off of information on their website and their owner's manual, neither of which mention anything about the amp switching over to Class A/B or producing any more power than the rated 30/60 watts. And I never suggested that the amp didn't have a beefy enough power supply or lacked current.

With that said, as I mentioned before, if nothing else in your system/room/listening position has changed other than the amp, then it is ONLY the amp causing your current issues, or as you put it, "mushy, boomy, one-note, droning, ill-intentioned, undisciplined and basically horrific bass response and an overall flat and lifeless sound."

Everyone who's going on about cables, what footers are on the speakers, if the speaker cables are out of phase, is irrelevant. According to you, all of that has remained the same after the initial amp swap, and those who questioned about phase should know that if one of your speakers were out of phase, you certainly wouldn't be getting "boomy, one-note, droning" bass. No, if one speaker was wired out of phase, you wouldn't be getting any bass at all and the speakers would sound like they are 30ft apart.

That's why I don't get why people on here are asking you such questions. They make no sense as to what you have described.

Yes, you said this in the original post as well, "Changed every imaginable cable combination under the sun, at least 50 times. Changed sources as well, speaker position, isolation feet under electronics...you name it." But that was only AFTER you installed the Luxman as was attempting to resolve the issue by other means.

Source changes, cable changes, equipment isolation gear, amplifier changes, none of those should make that drastic of a degrade in sound quality.

Whether your speakers are incompatible with the amp or there's something wrong with the amp, the only answer to your original question is that it is the AMP.


And just curious, why does it sound like you have distaste against Naim now? At least you were getting good sound with that gear.

 

[Mikado463]

27 posts and the 'ONLY' thing that has changed is amplification.......... and we're still talking about this ?????????

Audiophiles, for Gods sakes what a goofy bunch !!!!


myself included ......... :celebrate008_2:

 

[chops]

27 posts and the 'ONLY' thing that has changed is amplification.......... and we're still talking about this ?????????

Audiophiles, for Gods sakes what a goofy bunch !!!!


myself included ......... :celebrate008_2:

Yup. Pretty sad, isn't it?

I think you and I are the only two who's actually paid attention to what the OP said in his first post.

 

[jmusica]

I don’t get all the hand wringing. You changed the amp, you don’t like the way things sound. But did before you changed the amp, to a degree. You were seeking better. This amp, with current speakers, in the room you have, didn’t give you what you want.

Don’t be distracted by cables and footers and such - those can be marginal improvements, but the foundation has to be in your sweet spot first.

You have three choices. Keep amp rolling, start rolling speakers, or start swapping both. I’ve been through all those cycles; none are objectively wrong - just about budget, and fun, and access, and intuition. And now I have the system I always wanted.

 

[atmasphere]

Everyone who's going on about cables, what footers are on the speakers, if the speaker cables are out of phase, is irrelevant. According to you, all of that has remained the same after the initial amp swap, and those who questioned about phase should know that if one of your speakers were out of phase, you certainly wouldn't be getting "boomy, one-note, droning" bass. No, if one speaker was wired out of phase, you wouldn't be getting any bass at all and the speakers would sound like they are 30ft apart.

That's why I don't get why people on here are asking you such questions. They make no sense as to what you have described.

Yes, you said this in the original post as well, "Changed every imaginable cable combination under the sun, at least 50 times. Changed sources as well, speaker position, isolation feet under electronics...you name it." But that was only AFTER you installed the Luxman as was attempting to resolve the issue by other means.

Source changes, cable changes, equipment isolation gear, amplifier changes, none of those should make that drastic of a degrade in sound quality.

Whether your speakers are incompatible with the amp or there's something wrong with the amp, the only answer to your original question is that it is the AMP.


And just curious, why does it sound like you have distaste against Naim now? At least you were getting good sound with that gear.

Normally I would agree- you make a change and things don't work right, maybe it has something to do with the change.

However, if the change introduced a speaker out of phase, while most of the time that can act just as you describe, it can also do what he described if there is a standing wave that normally cancels in the room.

 

[chops]

Normally I would agree- you make a change and things don't work right, maybe it has something to do with the change.

However, if the change introduced a speaker out of phase, while most of the time that can act just as you describe, it can also do what he described if there is a standing wave that normally cancels in the room.

I'm not too sure about that. I've never heard of a "boom" show up because one speaker is wired out of phase from the other. The room is just the room. It doesn't know or care if the speakers are in phase or not. If one of the dimensions of the room produces a suck-out, it's going to suck out that same frequency every time it presents itself no matter what.

Personally, I have never heard of certain bass notes magically appearing when I purposely wired speakers out of phase when those notes weren't there before. And any standing waves would be either drastically reduced or completely gone as well.

 

[David60]

Okay, well I stand corrected. I was only going off of information on their website and their owner's manual, neither of which mention anything about the amp switching over to Class A/B or producing any more power than the rated 30/60 watts. And I never suggested that the amp didn't have a beefy enough power supply or lacked current.

With that said, as I mentioned before, if nothing else in your system/room/listening position has changed other than the amp, then it is ONLY the amp causing your current issues, or as you put it, "mushy, boomy, one-note, droning, ill-intentioned, undisciplined and basically horrific bass response and an overall flat and lifeless sound."

Everyone who's going on about cables, what footers are on the speakers, if the speaker cables are out of phase, is irrelevant. According to you, all of that has remained the same after the initial amp swap, and those who questioned about phase should know that if one of your speakers were out of phase, you certainly wouldn't be getting "boomy, one-note, droning" bass. No, if one speaker was wired out of phase, you wouldn't be getting any bass at all and the speakers would sound like they are 30ft apart.

That's why I don't get why people on here are asking you such questions. They make no sense as to what you have described.

Yes, you said this in the original post as well, "Changed every imaginable cable combination under the sun, at least 50 times. Changed sources as well, speaker position, isolation feet under electronics...you name it." But that was only AFTER you installed the Luxman as was attempting to resolve the issue by other means.

Source changes, cable changes, equipment isolation gear, amplifier changes, none of those should make that drastic of a degrade in sound quality.

Whether your speakers are incompatible with the amp or there's something wrong with the amp, the only answer to your original question is that it is the AMP.


And just curious, why does it sound like you have distaste against Naim now? At least you were getting good sound with that gear.

Yes, the questions about speaker phase were interesting but definitely not a factor in my situation. As for Naim, I could've lived with their sound on the Sopra 1s if they could figure out how to engineer their products correctly. There was just too many problems, idiosyncrasies, irregularities, anomalies and general irritants with Naim going from the Supernait 2 to the Supernait 3 to the 282, 250, HCDR using ND5XS2, nDAC and XPS as sources over a period of 8 years or so. Sound was OK but the company recently lost their way, lost the plot, lost Marketing directors, engineers, went through 3 managing directors and then decided to price their stuff at stoopid silly prices. The Luxman was meant to be a "forever amplifier" so I could just listen to music instead of mucking about with equipment all the time.

The crime of it all was that I did a 3 day in-home, in-system demo of the 590 before buying it. The new model was fine for about 6 months, then lo and behold it began to produce a prodigious amount of bass for literally no known reason. When I say I have checked, tested and trialed every known variable known to human kind, I mean it. That includes "phase polarity" and other unrelated topics...
Anyway, it's back to the drawing board. The point of my post was to seek advice on which to ditch, speakers or amp, because taken alone neither are known as shabby, sub-standard units. Appreciated your pertinent comments.
Thanks.

 

[David60]

27 posts and the 'ONLY' thing that has changed is amplification.......... and we're still talking about this ?????????

Audiophiles, for Gods sakes what a goofy bunch !!!!


myself included ......... :celebrate008_2:

It could've been 900 posts. I was unaware that seeking advice on which set of equipment to keep and which to sell had an imposed number of maximum posts...

 

[David60]

I don’t get all the hand wringing. You changed the amp, you don’t like the way things sound. But did before you changed the amp, to a degree. You were seeking better. This amp, with current speakers, in the room you have, didn’t give you what you want.

Don’t be distracted by cables and footers and such - those can be marginal improvements, but the foundation has to be in your sweet spot first.

You have three choices. Keep amp rolling, start rolling speakers, or start swapping both. I’ve been through all those cycles; none are objectively wrong - just about budget, and fun, and access, and intuition. And now I have the system I always wanted.

Yes, thanks. Fully agree, the question I seek to answer is which unit would have more value and logic to keep in the system. I am getting off the neurotic constant upgrade train with the strange idea of just listening to music as the primary objective. Without a doubt both speakers and amp are very nice products, they just don't like each other very much...Thanks.

 

[mep]

Yes, thanks. Fully agree, the question I seek to answer is which unit would have more value and logic to keep in the system. I am getting off the neurotic constant upgrade train with the strange idea of just listening to music as the primary objective. Without a doubt both speakers and amp are very nice products, they just don't like each other very much...Thanks.

Good luck with that. You asked for opinions and people on AS gave you plenty of them, but apparently those opinions didn't give you any clarity. This was your reply to me when I asked how a pair of speakers with 6 1/2" drivers could cause your bass boom:

"No, no sub at all. Believe me, I don't understand either. Naim, Musical Fidelity and Jadis in same system/situation never did this. It can only be the Luxman..."

Your response stated that it had to be the Luxman that was causing the issue. Other people have told you the same. Sell the Luxman and move on.

 

[greystoke4]

Hi well if your amp was sounding fine for 6 month's, then stated to sound to basey, it must be the amp, unless it has now fully run in, then again, its the amp,

 

[atmasphere]

I'm not too sure about that. I've never heard of a "boom" show up because one speaker is wired out of phase from the other. The room is just the room. It doesn't know or care if the speakers are in phase or not. If one of the dimensions of the room produces a suck-out, it's going to suck out that same frequency every time it presents itself no matter what.

Personally, I have never heard of certain bass notes magically appearing when I purposely wired speakers out of phase when those notes weren't there before. And any standing waves would be either drastically reduced or completely gone as well.

I've not either, but I've no idea what is being used for reference. Some recordings have out of phase bass... but end the end I don't like to leave possible variables on the table. This sort of thing is easy to check and if that's not it you move on. Turns out in this case some new info- the amp started doing its weirdness 6 months in. That doesn't sound like a phase issue to me.

 

[crwilli]

After reading through these posts, it seems to me you should try the following:

— Measure your low end response at current LP, then move the LP forward and back to see and hear the effect. Perhaps totally reset your speaker positions in the room after that. These are potentially the cheapest improvements (as Mike has suggested earlier).
— Find some sort of demo integrated with more power to try and isolate of the Luxman is the issue. If no improvement; then consider demo speakers.
— Lastly, if you are digital guy, try DSP.

 

[steve59]

David60, on post 33 you say the problem occured after 6 months of ownership and the amp & speaker combo sounded good during the demo period. Since the bass became mushy over a period of time and you didn't return it for service I think what you really want to know is if your specific model Luxman is known to change dramatically during the break-in period? Definitely a debated topic if break in is marketing or real and if real how many hours is realistic? Why weren't you warned. You posted early that you'd get the luxman checked out and if it sounded like your forever amp previously than the unit is likely damaged.