Speaker /amp incompatibility

David60

David60

New member
Joined
Nov 23, 2018
Messages
22
Location
Paris, France
Hello all,
Is there any reasonable explanation why a Luxman L-590AXII and a pair of Focal Sopra 1 speakers would absolutely not work well together? I have this pairing and after 12 months of fighting with a every minute possibility to improve things, I'm giving up and one of the two will have to go.
Electrically speaking, the 2 units are not blatantly at odds: the 590AXII may be only 30/60W in Class A but then shifts to AB to an even higher output rating, and the PS is purportedly a +/- 600VA beast.
The Sopras aren't necessarily an easy load but at 89db, 8 ohms nominal with a lowest dip at 3,9 ohms it shouldn't be mission impossible...
However, the main complaint is a mushy, boomy, one-note, droning, ill-intentioned, undisciplined and basically horrific bass response and an overall flat and lifeless sound.
Room is the same 4x8m listening space since 26 years. 8 GIK panels installed. Changed every imaginable cable combination under the sun, atleast 50 times. Changed sources as well, speaker position, isolation feet under electronics...you name it.
The only changed variable was the Luxman. 3 generations of previous Naim amplification worked infinitely better, so did Musical Fidelity.
Any miraculous advice or suggestions on which to keep and which to get rid of?
Thanks you!
David
 
David60 said:
Hello all,
Is there any reasonable explanation why a Luxman L-590AXII and a pair of Focal Sopra 1 speakers would absolutely not work well together? I have this pairing and after 12 months of fighting with a every minute possibility to improve things, I'm giving up and one of the two will have to go.
Electrically speaking, the 2 units are not blatantly at odds: the 590AXII may be only 30/60W in Class A but then shifts to AB to an even higher output rating, and the PS is purportedly a +/- 600VA beast.
The Sopras aren't necessarily an easy load but at 89db, 8 ohms nominal with a lowest dip at 3,9 ohms it shouldn't be mission impossible...
However, the main complaint is a mushy, boomy, one-note, droning, ill-intentioned, undisciplined and basically horrific bass response and an overall flat and lifeless sound.
Room is the same 4x8m listening space since 26 years. 8 GIK panels installed. Changed every imaginable cable combination under the sun, atleast 50 times. Changed sources as well, speaker position, isolation feet under electronics...you name it.
The only changed variable was the Luxman. 3 generations of previous Naim amplification worked infinitely better, so did Musical Fidelity.
Any miraculous advice or suggestions on which to keep and which to get rid of?
Thanks you!
David
Click to expand...

What feet do you have under the Focals and what is your floor material? "Mushy bass" may be mitigated by by reviewing these features. I've not used any of the kit you list, but I improved my bass detail and clarity considerably by moving away from spikes.
 
What cables are you using for the Sopra + Luxman combination?
Sorry to hear that they have not been working well for you.



.
 
Nikhil said:
What cables are you using for the Sopra + Luxman combination?
Sorry to hear that they have not been working well for you.

.
Click to expand...

Thanks for reply but cables don't matter in this case. I have gone through 4 full looms of different electrical valued cables and as expected, there is no beneficial (or detrimental) effect. Same with power cords, ethernet cable, BNC digital, RCA interconnects. It's a literal fool's game expecting something from that, IMHO in my setup.
 
Hear Here said:
What feet do you have under the Focals and what is your floor material? "Mushy bass" may be mitigated by by reviewing these features. I've not used any of the kit you list, but I improved my bass detail and clarity considerably by moving away from spikes.
Click to expand...

Hi, thanks for reply. Do you mean a solution like iso-acoustics or the like?
 
David60 said:
Hello all,
Is there any reasonable explanation why a Luxman L-590AXII and a pair of Focal Sopra 1 speakers would absolutely not work well together? I have this pairing and after 12 months of fighting with a every minute possibility to improve things, I'm giving up and one of the two will have to go.
Electrically speaking, the 2 units are not blatantly at odds: the 590AXII may be only 30/60W in Class A but then shifts to AB to an even higher output rating, and the PS is purportedly a +/- 600VA beast.
The Sopras aren't necessarily an easy load but at 89db, 8 ohms nominal with a lowest dip at 3,9 ohms it shouldn't be mission impossible...
However, the main complaint is a mushy, boomy, one-note, droning, ill-intentioned, undisciplined and basically horrific bass response and an overall flat and lifeless sound.
Room is the same 4x8m listening space since 26 years. 8 GIK panels installed. Changed every imaginable cable combination under the sun, atleast 50 times. Changed sources as well, speaker position, isolation feet under electronics...you name it.
The only changed variable was the Luxman. 3 generations of previous Naim amplification worked infinitely better, so did Musical Fidelity.
Any miraculous advice or suggestions on which to keep and which to get rid of?
Thanks you!
David
Click to expand...

"the only changed variable was the Luxman" :rolleyes:

next ...........
 
David60 said:
Hello all,
Is there any reasonable explanation why a Luxman L-590AXII and a pair of Focal Sopra 1 speakers would absolutely not work well together? I have this pairing and after 12 months of fighting with a every minute possibility to improve things, I'm giving up and one of the two will have to go.
Electrically speaking, the 2 units are not blatantly at odds: the 590AXII may be only 30/60W in Class A but then shifts to AB to an even higher output rating, and the PS is purportedly a +/- 600VA beast.
The Sopras aren't necessarily an easy load but at 89db, 8 ohms nominal with a lowest dip at 3,9 ohms it shouldn't be mission impossible...
However, the main complaint is a mushy, boomy, one-note, droning, ill-intentioned, undisciplined and basically horrific bass response and an overall flat and lifeless sound.
Room is the same 4x8m listening space since 26 years. 8 GIK panels installed. Changed every imaginable cable combination under the sun, atleast 50 times. Changed sources as well, speaker position, isolation feet under electronics...you name it.
The only changed variable was the Luxman. 3 generations of previous Naim amplification worked infinitely better, so did Musical Fidelity.
Any miraculous advice or suggestions on which to keep and which to get rid of?
Thanks you!
David
Click to expand...

No sub involved? I'm trying to figure out how you have out of control/horrific bass response with a single 6 1/2" bass/midrange driver per channel that is 6dB down at 41 Hz. Have you tried another amp besides the Luxman?
 
What happens if you move your listening seat to a different spot in the room (just for testing)?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
David60 said:
Yes, indeed but does that mean the Luxman is a poorly engineered piece of equipment? Still at square one on deciding which to ditch and which to keep...
Click to expand...

perhaps the difference in DF between the amps ? I don't know the specs for your amps ?
 
mep said:
No sub involved? I'm trying to figure out how you have out of control/horrific bass response with a single 6 1/2" bass/midrange driver per channel that is 6dB down at 41 Hz. Have you tried another amp besides the Luxman?
Click to expand...

No, no sub at all. Believe me, I don't understand either. Naim, Musical Fidelity and Jadis in same system/situation never did this. It can only be the Luxman...
 
Mike said:
What happens if you move your listening seat to a different spot in the room (just for testing)?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro[/QUOTE

Hello Mike,
Thanks for answering. Yes, moving around can change the intensity of the problem by sitting in or out of a room mode but the basic anomaly here remains: ill-defined, boomy one-note bass WITH the speakers ports plugged, which I previously never had to do.
You mentioned here once that B&W and Fyne could be associated with Luxman. Do you still recommend them and has your thinking/experience evolved on this point?
Thanks!
Click to expand...
 
David60 said:
Mike said:
What happens if you move your listening seat to a different spot in the room (just for testing)?


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro[/QUOTE

Hello Mike,
Thanks for answering. Yes, moving around can change the intensity of the problem by sitting in or out of a room mode but the basic anomaly here remains: ill-defined, boomy one-note bass WITH the speakers ports plugged, which I previously never had to do.
You mentioned here once that B&W and Fyne could be associated with Luxman. Do you still recommend them and has your thinking/experience evolved on this point?
Thanks!
Click to expand...


What happens is that you completely change how you hear the sound waves in your room. In many rooms, moving your listening seat 3 feet back or 3 feet forward from where it is now, will yield significant changes in the bass region. Moving it 5 feet forward or back, yields different results again. It’s important to understand that room nodes are completely different based on where you measure (or listen). A comprehensive study using testing equipment, may yield the flattest results (the ultimate objective) 3 feet back and 5 feet to the left (completely not acceptable for listening, but interesting nonetheless). Therefore, we always start by leaving the speakers in their ideal spot for your room and moving the listening position backwards or forwards. If you don’t want to move a chair, simply move yourself and stand.

Before considering new speakers, try this experiment first. If it’s still bad and you want to try something else, B&W and Fyne are “fine” options.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Click to expand...
 
This is interesting. It sounds as if the addition of the Luxman changed the locations of the nodes. Correct? Is this a phase shift phenomenon? For example, I have a troublesome low bass node, and pretty severe restrictions in seating and speaker placement. Would a different component change this? I assume changing phase polarity would not help.... It appears that at low frequencies sound waves can be as long as 17m. This could create challenges!
 
Ricky64 said:
This is interesting. It sounds as if the addition of the Luxman changed the locations of the nodes. Correct? Is this a phase shift phenomenon? For example, I have a troublesome low bass node, and pretty severe restrictions in seating and speaker placement. Would a different component change this? I assume changing phase polarity would not help.... It appears that at low frequencies sound waves can be as long as 17m. This could create challenges!
Click to expand...

Yes, unless you’re in the crazy camp of “all amps sound the same”, then yes, different amps can accentuate different frequencies and control different frequencies better.

Bass from a Soulution vs bass from a tube amp as an example.

And remember, subs can also really help tame bass nodes. Active bass traps can also be very effective, but remember, you need 2-4 to really make them work effectively. PSI AVAA’s.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
 
I thought you answered your own question.

"The only changed variable was the Luxman. 3 generations of previous Naim amplification worked infinitely better, so did Musical Fidelity."

That said, I have always thought speakers were the most critical component. They had to work with the room and the listeners personal taste. I am not a fan of box speakers but I needed a pair for my 2-channel HT and audio setup. I was impressed by Sopra 2s at audio shows and considered them for my room. After reading the online manual I decided the ports were not compatible with where I had to place the speakers. I remembered the rooms I had heard the Sopra 2s in. They were larger than average and allowed good space behind and beside the speakers. I chose sealed Magico A5s instead. They still require more space than I can give them but I feel I made a better choice for my room.

Ask yourself why you changed amplification. Was it because you were never satisfied with the previous amps? "Infinitely better" does not necessarily mean you were satisfied. If you were satisfied you would go back to an amp that worked and stop all this nonsense. If you were never satisfied it is probably time to reconsider your speaker choice.

Good luck whichever way you go.
 
David60 said:
Hello all,
Is there any reasonable explanation why a Luxman L-590AXII and a pair of Focal Sopra 1 speakers would absolutely not work well together? I have this pairing and after 12 months of fighting with a every minute possibility to improve things, I'm giving up and one of the two will have to go.
Electrically speaking, the 2 units are not blatantly at odds: the 590AXII may be only 30/60W in Class A but then shifts to AB to an even higher output rating, and the PS is purportedly a +/- 600VA beast.
The Sopras aren't necessarily an easy load but at 89db, 8 ohms nominal with a lowest dip at 3,9 ohms it shouldn't be mission impossible...
However, the main complaint is a mushy, boomy, one-note, droning, ill-intentioned, undisciplined and basically horrific bass response and an overall flat and lifeless sound.
Room is the same 4x8m listening space since 26 years. 8 GIK panels installed. Changed every imaginable cable combination under the sun, atleast 50 times. Changed sources as well, speaker position, isolation feet under electronics...you name it.
The only changed variable was the Luxman. 3 generations of previous Naim amplification worked infinitely better, so did Musical Fidelity.
Any miraculous advice or suggestions on which to keep and which to get rid of?
Thanks you!
David
Click to expand...


I would remove the speakers and best not to plug the port , if you want to attenuate bass output move them out from the walls for less bass. seriously , i would upgrade and move from such a small format speaker as your room is of decent size and can take a larger loudspeaker ..


Regards
 
I'm with Dave (Mikado463) on this one.

You said all of your previous amps and cables sounded just fine with the Focals, and ONLY the Luxman they don't. That pretty much tells me the Luxman is your issue.

Also, I must correct you on the power ratings of the Luxman. It is Class A only from what I can tell (even reading though the owner's manual), producing 30w @ 8 ohms and 60w @ 4 ohms. The damping factor of 320 is decent, but the amp itself just might be running out of steam and losing grip on the drivers, causing the sloppy bass.

Knowing what Naim gear you had powering the Focals before would help, but from what I looked at, they don't seem to mention the damping factor in their specs, but their power output seems to be a bit higher depending on the model.
 
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