Sound Correction, Where to start first?

[Golucid]

Where do you start first? Room Acoustics or with your equipment first [equipment, cables, stillpoints, etc]?

 

[bzr]

Start with the room, otherwise you will swap out way too much gear chasing the dragons tail.

 

[a.wayne]

Tough circle, but....! dat room, room ,room, setup, room ,setup, room ........:snicker:

 

[socfan12]

David, do the room as early as possible. It was probably the best investment I made in this hobby.

Ralph (kiwi) did a tremendous writeup of his room acoustic treatments you can find here: http://audioshark.org/audioshark-members-systems-101/music-farther-room-4398-page6.html#.VWBA4GTBzRZ

Definitely time well spent reading this.

 

[Bodhi]

David, do the room as early as possible. It was probably the best investment I made in this hobby.

Ralph (kiwi) did a tremendous writeup of his room acoustic treatments you can find here: http://audioshark.org/audioshark-members-systems-101/music-farther-room-4398-page6.html#.VWBA4GTBzRZ

Definitely time well spent reading this.

It's funny you mentioned room treatments Allen, as I was just thinking about the importance of room treatments today myself. Admittedly I have pushed room treatments into the "too hard" basket for now, but plan on adding extensive Stillpoints Aperture panels once my system is finished & I financially recover, lol! :lol: (Though i'm fortunate that my baseline...my current room sounds good already, with no real issues).

 

[CPP]

The room, its El Número Uno

 

[Mike]

The simple answer is the room, but it's not so simple. First, you have to determine whether you are done on the speaker front. Is your current pair of speakers your destination speakers or are you just starting out your audio journey and want to hear different speakers? Dialing in a room for Martin Logan's vs dialing in a room for Wilson's, Magico's, Focal's or Volti's is very different. Why? They are all different designs! Rear ported vs not ported vs downward ported vs front ported. You can't begin to treat the room until you MEASURE. You can't begin to measure your room if you haven't settled on speakers.

Once you've settled on speakers, then those speakers need to be fully broken in, then you measure. But you need professional guidance TO DO IT RIGHT as opposed to some guy at the end of the phone saying "uhhhh, put one there and one there....sure, let's try that."

There are some fundamental basics you can start with - bass traps, first and second reflection points, a couple of diffusers, but again, you need to determine destination speakers (at least this weeks destination!) and then measure.

For example, you may have some bad mid-bass hump with your current speakers, pay to treat for that, and then you decide to go with a new speaker and the problem is either non existent with the new speaker or it's worse. The speaker/room interaction varies dramatically depending on the type of speaker, the placement of the speaker in the room, the other objects in the room, how you pressurize the room and so much more.

Another issue you run into is treating first and second reflection points. You can treat for that now, but what happens if your new speakers have the tweeter physically placed much higher or lower and they need to be out further into the room? Now you have a panel in a place that is completely in the wrong place. If you are using something like a Vicoustics which is glued into place, you're talking about a major PITA to move them. I just removed 10 Vicoustics panels in my room because I am making room for treatments from Resolution Acoustics and it left drywall damage, paint was ruined (obviously) and a hell of a mess had to be scraped off. But there was no other way to properly hang Vicoustic panels without using their glue. But I digress...

Treating a room can become a very costly and wasteful adventure if you haven't yet decided on your speakers or you are working without advise and measurements.

 

[Bodhi]

Excellent advice Mike. I seem to have been unwittingly plodding along the right way, as I intuitively thought i'd leave room treatments till after my system was finished and I had my medium-long term speakers (likely a future Magico S model). That just seemed like the right way to go, but your commentary provided insight into the scientific and practical reasons why. Cheers :thumbsup:.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

Where do you start first?

The source of the soundwaves. Of course, being a speaker manufacturer, you knew I'd say that.
However, the fact remains, no sound source, no sound (other than ambient noise).
You hear both the source and room acoustics simultaneously, so they are always tied together.
A source with a smooth polar field and 6db less LF power, will have a very different soundfield than a source with an erratic polar field and heavy power taper from LF to HF....in the same exact room. IOW, one might need no so called "treatment" whatsoever (outside of "furnishings/decor"), while another might demand it.
Then there is the elephant: preference. As a recent show exhibit aptly demonstrated. Not everyone prefers the same thing!

cheers,

AJ

 

[Mike Lavigne]

Where do you start first? Room Acoustics or with your equipment first [equipment, cables, stillpoints, etc]?

well....that is a deep question. and assuming this is a very general question here is my viewpoint. if we apply the question to a particular system then the answer would be much more specific.

these are loosely in the order of significance to performance.....except the last step but it's the hard part for sure. and I personally believe that software trumps all. play a great recording and it will come thru regardless of the rest, and so should be the focus. wherever you are on the rest focus on the music.

1-are the electronics and signal path mature (essentially synergistic together)? do the amp and speakers work together properly? and are they reasonably matched to the room size?

2-next is room shape and set-up. weird shape? windows? living room? dedicated space with treatment flexibility? doors in the wrong place?

with a weird shape try long or short wall and diagonal.

3-hopefully it's a rectangle of some sort and a space where you can follow the rule of thirds (or fifths) as a starting point and a listening position at the point of an equilateral triangle. then there is toe in toe out according to manufacturer recs again as a starting point. laser alignment?

4-next is first reflection control; ceiling walls and floor. absorption? diffusion?

5-now you get to the finer points of feedback elimination. starting with the speakers and the floor. is the floor suspended wood? concrete? are you in an apartment? can the floor below be braced? controlling feedback at the source is the first choice.

6-power grid? power cords? conditioners? isolation transformers? duplex outlets? I've purposely left out interconnects and speaker cables. they are as important as you think they are.

7-now we get to racks and various decoupling choices. footers and shelves of various types. is there a turntable or digital transport? are there choices for gear location?

6 & 7 can be switched sometimes depending on the degree of effect on system performance.

8-ambient noise reduction? adding window treatments. maybe another layer of sheetrock. changing out a door.

9-bass linearity. since this is the hardest thing to solve and the issue you can do the least to change, it's left for last. unless you are a DSP sort of person. then it can be done much earlier. choices would be bass traps, Helmholtz resonators, maybe change a door or a window insert. you can even play around with speaker location or seating location to find the least bad positions.

the process thru these steps many times bounces around since solving bass issues, or power grid noise, or speaker amp relationship, etc., etc. can change the equation in other areas. a system is a dynamic environment with lots of interactive parts and takes years to work thru.

now, if like me you built a ground up clean sheet of paper purpose built room then to some extent you turn this list upside down and start with a plan to control the bass.

 

[a.wayne]

Excellent advice Mike. I seem to have been unwittingly plodding along the right way, as I intuitively thought i'd leave room treatments till after my system was finished and I had my medium-long term speakers (likely a future Magico S model). That just seemed like the right way to go, but your commentary provided insight into the scientific and practical reasons why. Cheers :thumbsup:.

I thought you were already with S-series ....?

 

[MusicDirector]

Take it from Mike, he learned the hard way!

Be careful if you go with a acoustical treatment service, there are some who will try to sell you everything and you will end up over-treating the room as well and wasting a hell of a lot of money. As Mike said, made to order room treatments are not cheap.

 

[Bodhi]

This article by Jeff Fritz might be of interest. Then there is the ubiquitous Cardas Room Setup Guide which discusses some of the concepts Mike referred to earlier.

 

[Golucid]

Treating a room can become a very costly and wasteful adventure if you haven't yet decided on your speakers or you are working without advise and measurements.

Mike, very interesting comment. I read very often folks buying and changing speakers out. If you change out your speakers, are the room treatments null and you have to start again? I have speakers and I just know I will change them all out at some point. Is it pointless to bother with room treatments?

 

[gusgranite]

Is it easy to test temporary room treatments before fixing them? Or are there non-fixed treatments that are recommended?

 

[Mike]

Is it easy to test temporary room treatments before fixing them? Or are there non-fixed treatments that are recommended?

It depends. Yes, you can buy some panels and try them out....but I really think the first step is to determine a pair of speakers. If its the current speakers - then lets get started! But I know from talking to David that he testing the waters.

 

[Mike]

Mike, very interesting comment. I read very often folks buying and changing speakers out. If you change out your speakers, are the room treatments null and you have to start again? I have speakers and I just know I will change them all out at some point. Is it pointless to bother with room treatments?

Yes. First start going to the shows, making a short list of "potential" speakers, go to dealers and listen, and finally, make a buying decision. Then get them in your room, break them in and then tackle the big project of the room (room/speaker interaction).

 

[MusicDirector]

Mike, very interesting comment. I read very often folks buying and changing speakers out. If you change out your speakers, are the room treatments null and you have to start again? I have speakers and I just know I will change them all out at some point. Is it pointless to bother with room treatments?

I have a different understanding of it I think. The reflections, null points and such are usually static, that is unchanging. In other words, the reflections are where they are, etc. The only time they change is in the effect they have on the acoustics in the room after treatment of any type, including just moving furniture and such.
Room treatments are for treating the room, the speakers have no effect on the room, but there is interaction which is the reason for treatment. It's almost the other way around actually in my mind, the room effects the sound of the speakers. Yes, different speakers will sound different in every room, treated or not. However, it's usually extremely subtle if one sticks with the same type of speaker build as opposed to going from say something like soft dome tweeter to ribbon tweeter to horn to transmission line to dipole to electrostatic, etc. That said, if you are going to extreme differences like that, then yes, you may have to do some tweaking with treatment to compensate the interaction as Mike stated.
Mike's order of ops is logical. Mike also makes a very important point of making sure you give the speakers time to break in because it is usually a noticeable change between brand spanking new out of box and 30 to 40 hours later. That's with any speaker.

Just my 2 cents opinion and understanding.

 

[Mike Lavigne]

most room treatments are related to mid and high frequencies. and most speakers have mid-range and tweeters at your sitting listening height projecting at that same height. therefore the treatments should be common for every speaker with dynamic drivers. the room predicts where the speakers go for the most part, not the speakers.

toe in and toe out recommendations do vary from manufacturer to manufacturer based on specific design but first refection principles don't much vary unless you have a planar-dipole speaker.

 

[LenWhite]

I'm using Acoustic Frontiers for my room acoustics design and implementation. When I asked AF about changing speakers I was told the room acoustics will not change for enclosed speakers such as my Raidho's. But a different "class" of speaker such as an electrostatic or bipolar speaker could potentially require some interior acoustic device changes.

For sure changing equipment in the pursuit of audio nirvana without considering room acoustics will result in never hearing your audio equipment full potential.