So, does the introduction of MQA change/alter your plans going forward?

[audiophil]

Hi Phil, funny but when I connect my pc to my msb dac and connect with a usb cable I can't get the tidal app to recognize the msb. I'm messing with it, but it will play the files from the desktop and it shows 16/44.1.

I understand that 24/48 is not the optimum, but it's pretty darn good, when passing through the Aurdender....actually very, very good.

I will get the pc to work with the tidal desktop app....back to it.

Funny you mentioned that - I had similar issues with the latest update to Tidal. Try this - plug in your MSB via USB. Open up the Tidal app and go to the settings page. You'll probably get where you are now - "No playback devices available." With it open, try plugging in another USB device into your computer. I had a little Fiio headphone dac/amp lying around, but something like a thumb drive might work. When I plug in the Fiio, both it and my Pulse show up as available options. If I had to guess it has something to do with the Pulse needing drivers, while the Fiio is driverless. Since I've found a workaround, I haven't reached out to Tidal for an explanation as to what is happening.

I assume you're using a Windows laptop?

 

[Rhapsody]

Funny you mentioned that - I had similar issues with the latest update to Tidal. Try this - plug in your MSB via USB. Open up the Tidal app and go to the settings page. You'll probably get where you are now - "No playback devices available." With it open, try plugging in another USB device into your computer. I had a little Fiio headphone dac/amp lying around, but something like a thumb drive might work. When I plug in the Fiio, both it and my Pulse show up as available options. If I had to guess it has something to do with the Pulse needing drivers, while the Fiio is driverless. Since I've found a workaround, I haven't reached out to Tidal for an explanation as to what is happening.



I assume you're using a Windows laptop?

Thx, yes Win 10 on a pc with the latest Tidal desktop version. Let me try plugging in another usb device.....thx

 

[La Dolce Vita]

What I have been asking right along.... I have to belief that comparing the CD quality Tidal streams versus the MQA Tidal streams, the improvements should be there and worthy for those who enjoy streaming through Tidal.

However the question I have been asking is MQA versus high res downloads for those of us that are not into streaming. The reason I ask this is I have read and heard for a while now that in essence MQA is a transport system to allow high res PCM files to be streamed without the bandwidth over head that those high res files would normally incur.

Here is a quote of a users who has done precisely this comparison from another forum:
"[FONT=verdana, geneva, lucida, lucida grande, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]I have been playing a bit with my Chord Hugo and Meridian Explorer 2 DAC's, with a normal PCM high res file the Chord is way better, with a downloaded MQA file the performance of the two DAC's get's closer. (but still prefer the Chord)."[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana, geneva, lucida, lucida grande, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]Then I read Rapsody's comments about MQA sounding more analog. This aspect would be interesting to me. I also read in several forums that eventual software decoding will help and certainly will allow streaming of high res files to sound better, but to get the real advantage in download use of a MQA certified DAC would be required.[/FONT]

[FONT=verdana, geneva, lucida, lucida grande, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]So far these are either far too expensive and out of the reach for 99.9% of the market (Meridian high end units, etc.), or do not allow for top use with other formats (Brooklyn, Explorer 2, etc.). I firmly believe what is needed for MQA to have a true market impact, after the initial hype and market buzz that is currently going on, is for the release of an add on unit allowing for MQA to be added to our current DACs without having to replace our units. Most people, such as myself, cannot either afford to purchase an ultra expensive unit or are willing to compromise our listening to other digital files we already have purchased (over 250 albums for me personally).

An add on unit allowing for our current DACs to continue being used with our current files and the add on to be engaged when a MQA file is detected. This is how MQA will have a true chance of having long term market impact in my opinion.[/FONT]

I hear you Randy. It's all relative I guess. I consider my Brooklyn the add on unit. It's $2K, not the $20K like my balanced Lampizator Golden Gate.

[emoji6]


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[still-one]

Very interesting - I'm going to favorite this one right now and test it out when I get home. It would be the first I've seen that didn't move to a higher sample rate when decoded.

So much to explore!

***Edit - I think you mean Hollow Meadows

Yes, Thanks for correcting the title. He is one of my favorite artists too.

 

[audiophil]

Phil, I still think that playing the file through the Aurender that shows 24/48 on the dac has been SW encoded in the Tidal app and you ARE getting a MQA file, just not the same as if a MQA dac will decode it in hw.

I'm still going to hold my position that it has NOT been software decoded. When using Aurender there is no interaction with the Tidal Desktop - you've simply instructed the Aurender to pull the encoded file from the Tidal database. That file - MQA encoded - will still play back on your DAC, but without the benefits of MQA. See Jim's (still-one) post above, #77. MQA files are backward compatible, but in order to get the benefits of MQA you've got to have DECODING happen somewhere in the playback chain.

Tidal also makes this distinction in their FAQ (emphasis their own):

How can I listen to TIDAL Masters (master-quality recordings)?
All you need is a TIDAL HiFi membership to access thousands of master-quality albums only through the TIDAL desktop application.

 

[still-one]

I think you mean a folded​ MQA file - in my mind unfolded = larger = decoded.

No. The file has been decoded so it has been unfolded by the MQA process. Initially I thought only the only way a unfolded MQA file could be sent out was analog. They said no, which surprised me.

 

[audiophil]

No. The file has been decoded so it has been unfolded by the MQA process. Initially I thought only the only way a unfolded MQA file could be sent out was analog. The said no, which surprised me.

Oh, I misunderstood you then - but in the process highlighted where all of this confusion is coming from.

Unfolding = decoding. So Tidal Desktop is "unfolding" the MQA file and passing it along digitally to the DAC.

Tidal can also pass along a "folded" file and, depending on the DAC it will either be unfolded prior to playback (MQA enabled DAC) or played in its "folded" form.

I sincerely feel that the fact that a DAC will play either the version of the file is what's leading to all of this ambiguity and confusion.

 

[Rhapsody]

Thx, yes Win 10 on a pc with the latest Tidal desktop version. Let me try plugging in another usb device.....thx

Thx Phil, but for whatever reason I can play from my Tidal desktop app on my laptop to the msb dac. The Tidal app shows master, and my computer sees the msb dac, but in the settings of the Tidal app those required pass through/exclusive boxes do not show up. It plays as a 16/44.1 file.

I tried connecting another usb device into my laptop, but the Tidal app did not see it either. I'm not going to mess with it as I will always be running through my Aurender and have a usb/mqa module coming for my MSB dac. Don't want to spend the cycles figuring out something I will never use anyway

I still believe that I am listening to a 24/48 mqa sw decoded file, which was decoded in the Tidal app and sent through the Aurender and is being picked up as an MQA'd file by the MSB. The sound is too different not to be MQA'd.....and it is VERY noticeably different.

This is all more fun than a "barrel of monkeys"

 

[Rhapsody]

So which Aurender are you using ? and what DAC do you have it connected to. The A10 is the only MQA component they have that is certified that I know of. Are you saying the Aurender software is doing full MQA or are you only getting the non-MQA DAC 24/96 MQA music file which still sounds better than some non MQA files..

Chris, I don't think Phil (who's on first) is using an Aurender. I am using an N10. Yes, the A10, which has a dac is "supposedly" the only Aurender certified model, but that's because it has an MQA DAC. I do not believe even the A10 fully supports MQA because the Aurender app, which goes across all of the devices currently is void of ANY MQA mentioning.

My N10 that I am using says nothing about MQA, BUT, when I save the Master files on my Tidal desktop app and then update my Ipad Aurender app and can play those files, they now show up as 24/48 on my DAC.....and they sound "delicious".

 

[audiophil]

Thx Phil, but for whatever reason I can play from my Tidal desktop app on my laptop to the msb dac. The Tidal app shows master, and my computer sees the msb dac, but in the settings of the Tidal app those required pass through/exclusive boxes do not show up. It plays as a 16/44.1 file.

I tried connecting another usb device into my laptop, but the Tidal app did not see it either. I'm not going to mess with it as I will always be running through my Aurender and have a usb/mqa module coming for my MSB dac. Don't want to spend the cycles figuring out something I will never use anyway

I still believe that I am listening to a 24/48 mqa sw decoded file, which was decoded in the Tidal app and sent through the Aurender and is being picked up as an MQA'd file by the MSB. The sound is too different not to be MQA'd.....and it is VERY noticeably different.

This is all more fun than a "barrel of monkeys"

I'm sorry you're having so much trouble connecting directly to your DAC. Believe me, I struggled to find a solution. I'm obviously not going to convince you otherwise, so let me leave you with an anecdote with the hope you'll do some additional exploration on your own. I have a friend who subscibes to Tidal and uses ROON. He, like you, was convinced that he was getting the full benefit of MQA by playing Master files through ROON. He was seeing an increased bit depth and heard a significant difference in the sound vs Redbook. I had him send me a screenshot of what he was seeing in his playback chain, so I could compare it to mine. Here are the images we sent back and forth. You can see we were playing the same album, yet his playback was at 44.1 and mine at 88.2. He finally connected his DAC directly to his computer and was FLOORED by the improvement in sound quality.

So here's an easy experiment - can you find the Master version of this album from Iron and Wine and play it back using your Aurender and report back what sample rate your DAC displays? Sound quality aside, it stands to reason that if you're getting 88.2 you're getting MQA, and if 44.1 you're not. Would you agree?

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[still-one]

Oh, I misunderstood you then - but in the process highlighted where all of this confusion is coming from.

Unfolding = decoding. So Tidal Desktop is "unfolding" the MQA file and passing it along digitally to the DAC.

Tidal can also pass along a "folded" file and, depending on the DAC it will either be unfolded prior to playback (MQA enabled DAC) or played in its "folded" form.

I sincerely feel that the fact that a DAC will play either the version of the file is what's leading to all of this ambiguity and confusion.

There is no doubt that there is ambiguity and confusion with the current state of MQA an Tidal. I don't expect it will get sorted out too soon with all of the new hardware coming on line. I am looking for additional content on Tidal and for more MQA albums added to Hires Audio for purchase.

 

[Rhapsody]

I'm sorry you're having so much trouble connecting directly to your DAC. Believe me, I struggled to find a solution. I'm obviously not going to convince you otherwise, so let me leave you with an anecdote with the hope you'll do some additional exploration on your own. I have a friend who subscibes to Tidal and uses ROON. He, like you, was convinced that he was getting the full benefit of MQA by playing Master files through ROON. He was seeing an increased bit depth and heard a significant difference in the sound vs Redbook. I had him send me a screenshot of what he was seeing in his playback chain, so I could compare it to mine. Here are the images we sent back and forth. You can see we were playing the same album, yet his playback was at 44.1 and mine at 88.2. He finally connected his DAC directly to his computer and was FLOORED by the improvement in sound quality.

So here's an easy experiment - can you find the Master version of this album from Iron and Wine and play it back using your Aurender and report back what sample rate your DAC displays? Sound quality aside, it stands to reason that if you're getting 88.2 you're getting MQA, and if 44.1 you're not. Would you agree?

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Thx Phil, I do appreciate it! If I did not have my usb/mqa module coming soon for my msb then I would beat my pc into submission, but I am never going to be using it like this.

I know that I am not getting full benefit of mqa when it is being done in SW in the Tidal app vs. HW decoding or even connecting to the pc and getting a higher rate, BUT if you heard what I was hearing you would understand why I am totally content until I can get the full hw decoding in my msb dac, which will be soon.

Thx again!!!

 

[Rhapsody]

Phil,

Have you read this?

http://www.audiostream.com/content/mqa-reviewed#EzwdE5IvmyHijEG2.97

It definitely says you are getting MQA (watered down maybe, but still MQA)

The MQA "audio origami" process wraps files in a 24-bit FLAC container which can be read by non-MQA enabled DACs. When playing back high-res content on a non-MQA DAC, the file is presented to the DAC as either 24/44.1 or 24/48 depending on the original sample rate family. You cannot play back an MQA encoded 24/96 file as a 24/96 file on a non-MQA DAC.
The MQA "origami" process reduces the file size of high-res content down to the size of a 24/44.1 or 24/48 file if the original is higher sample-rate.
A high-resolution original is "limited to an effective resolution of less than 24 bits" when processed by MQA.[SUP][1][/SUP]

Read more at http://www.audiostream.com/content/mqa-reviewed#FuIhM2fE7oIz1SVd.99

 

[audiophil]

Thx Phil, I do appreciate it! If I did not have my usb/mqa module coming soon for my msb then I would beat my pc into submission, but I am never going to be using it like this.

I know that I am not getting full benefit of mqa when it is being done in SW in the Tidal app vs. HW decoding or even connecting to the pc and getting a higher rate, BUT if you heard what I was hearing you would understand why I am totally content until I can get the full hw decoding in my msb dac, which will be soon.

Thx again!!!

That's what I'm getting at - you're not getting any of the benefit of MQA if you're not seeing the higher bitrate. Because if you're not seeing the higher bitrate, there's no decoding being done, hardware, software, or otherwise. That's why I asked you to confirm what bitrate you get when you play the specific Iron and Wine album "Ghost on Ghost" using your Aurender.

I want to be perfectly clear that I cannot dispute your subjective observation that Master files played via your Aurender sound better than Hi-fi quality files - your ears are your ears alone. What I am disputing is your objective claim that the MQA information contained within high-resolution Master files is being decoded, which can be objectively verified​ by the bitrate displayed at the time of playback.

 

[rbbert]

Go to Tidal.com
Scroll down to tidal masters, click on "learn more"
Then scroll down and you'll see two options, new users - experience 60 complimentary days of tidal hifi - click on "sign up to tidal" (follow the sign up process) then download the desktop pc/mac app.

On the app's "settings" tab, click on the "streaming" menu and make sure your quality option is set to hifi/master (not normal or high)
And below this, Under sound output, look for your dac and select it.



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Under "sound output" it says "no audio devices found", but I get 16/44.1 sound through the Oppo. I'll check with Tidal support to see if they can help.

 

[audiophil]

Phil,

Have you read this?

http://www.audiostream.com/content/mqa-reviewed#EzwdE5IvmyHijEG2.97

It definitely says you are getting MQA (watered down maybe, but still MQA)

The MQA "audio origami" process wraps files in a 24-bit FLAC container which can be read by non-MQA enabled DACs. When playing back high-res content on a non-MQA DAC, the file is presented to the DAC as either 24/44.1 or 24/48 depending on the original sample rate family. You cannot play back an MQA encoded 24/96 file as a 24/96 file on a non-MQA DAC without software decoding taking place before the DAC.
The MQA "origami" process reduces the file size of high-res content down to the size of a 24/44.1 or 24/48 file if the original is higher sample-rate.
A high-resolution original is "limited to an effective resolution of less than 24 bits" when processed by MQA.[SUP][1][/SUP]

Read more at http://www.audiostream.com/content/mqa-reviewed#FuIhM2fE7oIz1SVd.99

I'd like to point out that this article is more than 7 months old, and doesn't take into account the introduction of software decoding by the Tidal Desktop app (I've added to your post to bring it up to speed with the times).

Besides that, Michael Lavorgna doesn't say anything that I haven't already said. An MQA file in it's 24/44 or 24/48 container can still be read by a non-MQA DAC, but it's not going to be decoded to its full encoded sample rate (88.2 or 96k). In other words, an undecoded MQA file is just another 24 bit audio file, much like those for sale @ hdtracks.com and other sites.

 

[audiophil]

Under "sound output" it says "no audio devices found", but I get 16/44.1 sound through the Oppo. I'll check with Tidal support to see if they can help.

How are you connecting to the Oppo?

 

[still-one]

Thx Phil, I do appreciate it! If I did not have my usb/mqa module coming soon for my msb then I would beat my pc into submission, but I am never going to be using it like this.

I know that I am not getting full benefit of mqa when it is being done in SW in the Tidal app vs. HW decoding or even connecting to the pc and getting a higher rate, BUT if you heard what I was hearing you would understand why I am totally content until I can get the full hw decoding in my msb dac, which will be soon.

Thx again!!!

Just to let you know my 808v6 display shows MQA 44k on this title.

 

[Rhapsody]

Just to let you know my 808v6 display shows MQA 44k on this title.

It shows 24/44K on this title on my dac playing through the Aurender. I maintain that this has been decoded/unfolded in the Tidal app and has passed the MQA version of the file at 24/44 to the msb. If I had a mqa module in the msb then it would read higher to ??? and I hope that it does sound much better once it is hw decoded, BUT I still think this 24/44 is an MQA file and not by what I am hearing, just by the fact of what is shown in that review that I just passed on to you.

Sincerely, this if fun and exciting times....learning and enjoying!!!

 

[tunes]

Thx Phil, but for whatever reason I can play from my Tidal desktop app on my laptop to the msb dac. The Tidal app shows master, and my computer sees the msb dac, but in the settings of the Tidal app those required pass through/exclusive boxes do not show up. It plays as a 16/44.1 file.

Bob,
In settings of the desktop tidal app, if you are seeing your msb dac selected, hover the mouse/cursor over the end of that text (ie to the right of "msb dac") and a tool icon will come up that you need to click to open the box that allows you to select exclusive mode.
Chris


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