Shuguang Treasures

CDLehner

CDLehner

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Hmm...I was kind of surprised, this wasn't already a topic here (though it's probably tucked-away, in some other threads)

With the decision, the LM 211ia is a definite keeper; I'm like a kid in the glass store, contemplating rolling options.

I already have Winged-C EL-34s on the way; and I had a pair of NOS Mullard CV4004s on-hand already.

My question is about Shuguang Treasures...and are they worth the $$$? It's a 6CA7 http://psvanetube.com/wordpress/store/products/6ca7-z-quad/...and I've been reading that, as opposed to a true EL-34, it's less lush in the middle...and tighter at the frequency extremes. But that aside...anyone tried these tubes, and found them to be worth the bux? (these 6CA7s are just shy of $400 for the quad).

I've also, already received one recommendation...for the Psvane Philips Replica Psvane Philips Holland Metal Base Replica EL34PH (quad) | Psvane & Shuguang Treasure Audio Tubes, Caps and Amps; so thoughts and/or comparisons on those are welcome.
 
I have the treasures (black) KT88 in my air tight - they beat the sed winged C that were in there.
 
Chris,

If you're willing to try something totally different, but sonically better?, to my ears at least, you might want to look for either NEC or Matsushita EL34/6CA7 tubes from Japan, as logic would in fact dictate the Japanese would've certainly had more funds to invest in the tooling to produce tubes with even better quality then just about any Chinese based factory, would they not?.

And please take into account, that while we were buying into the Japanese transistor amps beginning in the mid 60s, throughout the 70s, the Japanese more then any other culture have always remained true to two vital items of interest to my mind - that's tubes, and jazz.

Long after everyone else had written both off, the Japanese were in fact buying up everything they could, and actually produce some of the most cleanest - quietest LPs pressings I've ever heard/owned followed by Germany and ones from the likes of labels like Dragon - Opus 3 - SteepleChase and CrissCross from Sweden or Norway.


When it came to producing tubes, whom would you then think between the two nations would actually have more means of investing in quality reproduction of both vinyl and tubes between China or Japan?, hence my logic behind recommending both of the ones above.

As always, just food for thought.

O_oh
 
Dpod4 said:
I have the treasures (black) KT88 in my air tight - they beat the sed winged C that were in there.
Click to expand...

No surprise since the SED KT-88s are nothing special. I'm surprised at that because I do think the SED EL-34s sound damn good.
 
It's hard for me to get excited about any Chinese tube in the here and now. I know they have come a long way since they started building tubes. I know that China has some good tube manufacturing gear because I do believe that England sold them their machinery that was used by the top manufacturers when England divested themselves from tube manufacturing. I also read somewhere that the Brits went to China to try and teach them how to use the equipment and manufacture audio tubes. It's a long and steep learning curve.
 
mep said:
It's hard for me to get excited about any Chinese tube in the here and now. I know they have come a long way since they started building tubes. I know that China has some good tube manufacturing gear because I do believe that England sold them their machinery that was used by the top manufacturers when England divested themselves from tube manufacturing. I also read somewhere that the Brits went to China to try and teach them how to use the equipment and manufacture audio tubes. It's a long and steep learning curve.
Click to expand...

mep,

I wholeheartedly agree with that, and I've owned quite a few tubes from about 6 different Chinese factories, and came away thinking back in 2004, they were good enough for putting into one of my tube Integrated's that I had hooked with a DVD Player into the TV, but that's it.

Here's something taken from Brent Jeesse's site, that should still hold true to this day:

The EL34 and it's "Americanized" version, the 6CA7, are among the most popular and sought out vintage tubes today. This tube is a pentode of the power amplifier type. It probably gained most of it's popularity as the output tube of choice in the famous Dynakit ST70 amps, but it has been around since the 1950s. It was found in musicial instrument amps, public address systems, and other types of home and professional audio systems. It packs quite a whallop in a rather small glass package, and yet, in well crafted amps like the ST70, it can image well, with a delicate airy touch and a solid bottom end. I have never heard a "bad" vintage EL34. Even those made in the late 1970s in Great Britain are wonderful tubes, easily outperforming the current made tubes of this type. The EL34 and 6CA7 are identical, and most versions have both type numbers on the label. Another British-made tube, the KT77, is also a drop-in replacement for the EL34/6CA7 family. This is an excellent, but rare tube not often found in the USA>


This tube is capable of MAXIMUM plate voltage of 800 volts and peak power at 25 watts! Of course, these are absolute maximum readings, at which stage nuclear meltdown occurs! In typical class A operation, I have seen suggested specs of 250 volts on the plate and screen, giving a conservative power output of 11 watts. The vintage versions of this tube have no problem running at 440 volts on plate and screen at about -38 to -42 bias volts, and this is what is often found in vintage amps. Unfortunately, Russian and Chinese tubes begin to spit and spark at these voltages, which is why the British and Dutch vintage EL34 tubes are so much in demand. These tubes are getting pricey and hard to come by. These tubes last so long, that used ones testing sufficiently above minimum Gm are usually priced nearly as high as NOS versions, and it is often difficult to tell NOS from used on the open market as most of the boxes have rotted away!

And I've had an amp blow its power transformers trying to use said Russian and Chinese versions of the 6CA7 " Fat Boy ", and to this very day tend to avoid anything other then what's packaged with the amp upon its arrival - and in most cases in Chinese amps, they're labeled as EL34B, which aren't designed to draw much current/voltage as a true 6CA7, so be very careful with this one Chris.

I've been impressed with SED Winged =C=s as heard in Shindo Labs and Leben gear, and I know that Matt at Prefect Pitch Audio is taken with the RFT/Siemens EL34s, and with good reason, they sing. And if these brands are good enough to be in these amps, and from what I heard while demoing them, who am I to change that.

Regards,
O_o scar
 
Hi Chris,

Last one on the subject at hand, yet shows why I'm one of those few whom has ventured outwards to Japanese tubes, as per my recommendation for the NEC or Matsushita EL34/6CA7s, and mentioned to you earlier on, I've a friend on the Hong Kong Tube Audio site whom has taught me a great deal about tubes since 1999, and more often then not, on certain brands or more importantly which factories were better at producing tubes based upon which ones actually had the most resolution and/or transparent sound, case in point, while most have heard/owned tubes commonly produced by one of the five Mullard plants namely
" Blackburn ", it is in fact one of their factories that has the least desirable sound compared to one or two others, yet because most don't take the time to study or compare these different factories side by side, most seem content not knowing the truth of the matter!.

Which then leads to to explain my findings with said Japanese tubes, the Matsushita EL34/6CA7 were produced at a factory located in Takatsuki, Japan, which actually is the same place that produced these:

High Fidelity

And once again, my point being it's all about whom had/has the money to invest in proper production of tubes quality wise versus the Chinese or Japanese!, remember it's about the factory sound that matters most, and as quiet as it's kept, I'm still not sold on Chinese tubes as far as reliability goes. But that's just based upon the fact that very few of them last upwards of the 2.800 hours expected from certain power tubes, and when one spends say between $300 - $400 per quad on power tubes, I'd want them to last longer then 1.500 - 1.800 hours depending on usage of course, as well as if they're suitable for ones amp to begin with?. And let's not even get started on the Chinese 845s versus say the Elrog ER 845 coming out of Germany:

Elrog 845 vacuum tube hand made in Germany. At True Audiophile - YouTube

But then again, we do in the end, get what we pay for, do we not?.

Peace,
O_oh
 
Kt77 said:
But then again, we do in the end, get what we pay for, do we not?.
Peace,
O_oh
Click to expand...

I like to caveat this old saying by changing it to say "You normally can expect to get what you pay for, but sometimes you get less, and sometimes you get more." It's companies that *give* you more that garner interest and good will.
 
mep said:
I like to caveat this old saying by changing it to say "You normally can expect to get what you pay for, but sometimes you get less, and sometimes you get more."
Click to expand...

Unfortunately I think this is especially true with the many tube types where the consensus is that NOS tubes are better than any current production tubes
 
mep said:
I like to caveat this old saying by changing it to say "You normally can expect to get what you pay for, but sometimes you get less, and sometimes you get more." It's companies that *give* you more that garner interest and good will.
Click to expand...


Valid point.
 
rbbert said:
Unfortunately I think this is especially true with the many tube types where the consensus is that NOS tubes are better than any current production tubes
Click to expand...


To my ears/findings, I don't have any problems with some of the current production power tubes, but I mostly use ones from 1960/68 as far as EL34/84s go, but the newer signal tubes leave me craving NOS ones made between 1955/62 - and there's no changing my mind on what large differences there are..........., yet, hearing is believing.
 
rbbert said:
Unfortunately I think this is especially true with the many tube types where the consensus is that NOS tubes are better than any current production tubes
Click to expand...

It's also unfortunate for us tube lovers that the heyday of tube production around the world is long gone. At one time when everything was powered by tubes, we had the best minds in the world designing and building tubes. Take a look through any of the RCA receiving tube manuals and just marvel at all of the different tubes that were invented for very specific purposes. Tube engineers could make vacuum tubes do any damn thing they wanted them to short of fetching their newspaper in the morning.

When tubes started phasing out, the modern industrialized world got out of the tube manufacturing business. Most of Britian's tube manufacturing machinery went to China. Lots of the machinery from the U.S. remains here and last I knew, Richardson Electronics in Illinois bought up much of it and has it stored in a warehouse.

Fortunately for us tube lovers, Russia never got out of tube production. A big part of the battle for making quality tubes is to keep your production lines moving. Look at what happened to WE when they decided to put the 300B back into production. They had the drawings, the machinery, the tooling, the specifications, but no tribal knowledge. It was all gone. Even when you have the recipe, you can still *lose* the recipe. As for the Chinese, they never had the recipe in the first place. The US had it, the Germans had it, the Brits had it, Holland had it, and to a lesser extent, the Japanese had it.
 
I'd like to see what Kronzilla could do if they made a wider variety of tube types.

I hate the idea (and the reality) of depending on Russia for anything...
 
mep said:
It's also unfortunate for us tube lovers that the heyday of tube production around the world is long gone. At one time when everything was powered by tubes, we had the best minds in the world designing and building tubes. Take a look through any of the RCA receiving tube manuals and just marvel at all of the different tubes that were invented for very specific purposes. Tube engineers could make vacuum tubes do any damn thing they wanted them to short of fetching their newspaper in the morning.

When tubes started phasing out, the modern industrialized world got out of the tube manufacturing business. Most of Britian's tube manufacturing machinery went to China. Lots of the machinery from the U.S. remains here and last I knew, Richardson Electronics in Illinois bought up much of it and has it stored in a warehouse.

Fortunately for us tube lovers, Russia never got out of tube production. A big part of the battle for making quality tubes is to keep your production lines moving. Look at what happened to WE when they decided to put the 300B back into production. They had the drawings, the machinery, the tooling, the specifications, but no tribal knowledge. It was all gone. Even when you have the recipe, you can still *lose* the recipe. As for the Chinese, they never had the recipe in the first place. The US had it, the Germans had it, the Brits had it, Holland had it, and to a lesser extent, the Japanese had it.
Click to expand...


NEC ( Nippon Electric Company ) were in fact set up by WE back in the day, and are renowned for making various tubes with even greater resolution then said ones from WE, and let's not forget the French, because to my ears.........., several of their factories made some very beautiful sounding tubes.

But, I for one, do feel your pain, which is why I continue to hoard a lot of those olde pieces of glass while I, still able to find them through my sources all over the globe. Because the truth of the matter is - once gone, they're gone.
 
rbbert said:
I'd like to see what Kronzilla could do if they made a wider variety of tube types.

I hate the idea (and the reality) of depending on Russia for anything...
Click to expand...

You and me both brother, but what are we going to do about it? If there would be anything to drive the US to restart audio tube production it would be a long-term ban on the import of anything sourced from Russia. Many of us would be screwed if we could no longer buy tubes made in Russia. It would be possible to build tubes here again, it just wouldn't be cheap or happen quickly.
 
CDLehner said:
If they can start making records again...why not tubes??
Click to expand...

It's not a question of could we do it here again. We certainly could. It's a question of economics. Setting up a new company to manufacture audio tubes in the US would require a very large outlay of capital and the returns on that investment would be long-term which is not inducive to generating excitement with investors. Someone who invests in this endeavor has to have deep pockets and patience to match and actually would probably have to be deeply vested in our hobby.
 
Just to update the thread....

I have experience with the treasures. About 2 years. And the PSVane Grey bottles, about the same. This applies to my CJ amp I've owned for more than 20 years and have re-tubed maybe 6x. I bought some treasures for my son's Audio research as well and he has run them 3 years.

Love the sound of them. Now understand these are used in bi-amped systems and do not handle bass. That can change a lot of things. But the best el34 sound was probably vintage Winged C in both amps. I actually like the PSVane better than that and the Shuggies as well. And both are better than the gold lion reproductions when they came out by a larger margin.

Problem is reliability. I've had 4 failures from a total of 12 tubes. And they take out parts 3x, when they flashed and went. So, an additional expense to incur and that factor alone makes them not economically feasable.

In the 33 years I've ran tube amps, I've had these failures; 2 gold lions/3 psvane/1 shuguang treasure/1 vintage winged c. That's for 33 years amps {and a tube preamp}. And my son's system for 3 years. So, no more Gold Lions and what other new tube is out there to try?

So you could say I expect and demand reliability. Not just good sound. But reliability.

I gave them a try because of the escalating costs of vintage tubes. So I thought time to re-tube, lets give them consideration. So, I have to buy 2 sets of matched quads for the cj. 2 sets of matched pair for the Audio Research. I have my local tech guy install them and bias them.

There is no other part of my audio chain that has ever failed to the degree these tubes have. So, it's back to buying vintage tubes for this guy. And it's a big price jump again, but factoring in the repair costs----much less expensive going vintage.

And I'm sure companies like Tungsol/Mullard/Matsushita/Phillips/etc did not have failure rates in the % we are talking about in todays' tube world.
 
My Gold Lion KT88 reissues are approaching end of life, over 8,000 hours. Been thinking about these but I heard they aren't quite as reliable or long life as the Gold Lions?

I will need at least 6-8 quad sets to drive my 3 X Mc2301s or at least enough to power 2 of the amps at minimum.

What do you say?
 
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