Shots fired!

AJ Soundfield said:
Didn't watch video (even though I'm friends with Danny), but it seems the main "beef" is a 3" fullrange speaker kit.
That, in of itself, makes me laugh. A lot.

cheers,

AJ
Click to expand...

Actually it's even better. Amir built the speaker without insulation (because the kit did not include it). He also does not round off the edges (edge diffraction?) or consider any of the other recommended improvements (No Rez etc). He then criticizes the data he has measured on spectral decay, impedance and port noise etc completely oblivious to the effects of enclosure resonance on all those measurements.



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Nikhil said:
Amir built the speaker without insulation (because the kit did not include it)
Click to expand...
He didn't build either speaker, just measure. But yes, it's helpful to test something properly, as would be presented to users.
Please see latest link above.
Again, not much can be done to a 3" fullrange. Except laugh at the whole drama its created. Yes, I know there's more to the beef, but it seemed the final straw/trigger. Lets enjoy the show, shall we?

cheers,

AJ
 
AJ Soundfield said:
...Yes, I'm aware he "listens" in mono. NOT like Harman.

cheers,

AJ
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I'm sorry, I must be a bit out of date. Harman no longer tests one speaker at a time, but rather stereo pairs? I do know that when Amir worked for Harman (and even after he left) they tested only in mono.

At one point many years ago Amir measured a bunch of different cables, including a coat hanger, and found that they all measured about the same (L, C, R, and frequency response in the audible range).

Why does he not measure impulse response for DAC's?
 
rbbert said:
Harman no longer tests one speaker at a time, but rather stereo pairs?
Click to expand...
No, the opposite, they test almost exclusively in mono, after initially testing in stereo when they got the shuffler. I corresponded with Toole about this long ago. The correlation was inevitable that the mono winner also won in stereo. There's never been an opposite. There have been close exceptions like the Quad ESL. But no reverse. You have to also understand the context. 99.9% of the market are monopoles, which is also what they make/sell. The chance of a reverse there is zero. They can/would test in stereo for something unusual. The shuffler does both. Mono is extremely revealing for FR errors, resonances and a host of other issues critical when developing. I know, since I do. Its quite startling if you've never done. Now for spatial aspects, while mono is highly predictive for monopoles, stereo is still better for special cases.
I cannot trust the Harman speaker preference score | Page 37 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
So test in mono, but listen in both mono/stereo if needed.

rbbert said:
I do know that when Amir worked for Harman (and even after he left) they tested only in mono.
Click to expand...
Amir has never worked for Harman. He worked at Microsoft.

cheers,

AJ
 
It will be interesting to read the fallout between fans on both sides. I briefly met Danny at CES a number of years back and invited him to our room to meet and talk with Andy Payor. I have also been a long time member at the AudioCircles where Danny has a company forum. I know he has done design work for other companies over the years.
 
AJ Soundfield said:
No, the opposite, they test almost exclusively in mono, after initially testing in stereo when they got the shuffler. I corresponded with Toole about this long ago. The correlation was inevitable that the mono winner also won in stereo. There's never been an opposite. There have been close exceptions like the Quad ESL. But no reverse. You have to also understand the context. 99.9% of the market are monopoles, which is also what they make/sell. The chance of a reverse there is zero. They can/would test in stereo for something unusual. The shuffler does both. Mono is extremely revealing for FR errors, resonances and a host of other issues critical when developing. I know, since I do. Its quite startling if you've never done. Now for spatial aspects, while mono is highly predictive for monopoles, stereo is still better for special cases.
I cannot trust the Harman speaker preference score | Page 37 | Audio Science Review (ASR) Forum
So test in mono, but listen in both mono/stereo if needed.


Amir has never worked for Harman. He worked at Microsoft.

cheers,

AJ
Click to expand...

So why did you originally post that Harman does NOT test in mono (post #17)? Or did you mean they listen in stereo and test in mono (not exactly what you posted, though)? And the unreliable results testing only one dipole on their rotating turntable set-up is what I meant by "limitations"; there are a lot of dipole speakers these days.

Amir either worked for or contracted with Harman after leaving Microsoft. He purchased most of his current "reference" system from them at employee pricing, and was involved with parts of their speaker research, including at least the JBL Everest (according to him).
 
rbbert said:
So why did you originally post that Harman does NOT test in mono (post #17)? Or did you mean they listen in stereo and test in mono (not exactly what you posted, though)?
Click to expand...
Sheesh, I even put the quote marks as emphasis, nothing about Harman not listening in mono, but not "listening".
Yes, I'm aware he "listens" in mono. NOT like Harman.
Click to expand...
Meaning Harmans mono is "trust ears","just listen", Amirs is anything but. Both mono, but one eyes wide open, mind churning those audiophile beliefs, etc, etc. NOT the same.

rbbert said:
And the unreliable results testing only one dipole on their rotating turntable set-up is what I meant by "limitations"; there are a lot of dipole speakers these days.
Click to expand...
Huh? Please link the "reliable" results that contradict their "unreliable" dipole ones. You seem almost lower spectrum oblivious to what they actually do :P. There is no "rotating turntable", its a robotic system that grabs and places (shuffles) the speaker in place. Wish I had one!
I cited Olive himself acknowledging the need for something with full dipole like directivity to probably be mono/stereo tested. Linked above.
What's the "limitation" there?? And again, dipoles are still a miniscule part of the total consumer market, including the high end. Heck, Mike doesnt carry a single one ;-).
Look forward to your dipoles test data links.

rbbert said:
Amir either worked for or contracted with Harman after leaving Microsoft. He purchased most of his current "reference" system from them at employee pricing, and was involved with parts of their speaker research, including at least the JBL Everest (according to him).
Click to expand...
No idea where you got this misinformation. Amir never ever worked for Harman. His Madrona home automation business carries Harman products, so he's a dealer and thus gets dealer pricing on his personal stuff. It would be really helpful to provide links to what you claim.

cheers,

AJ
 
AJ Soundfield said:
Heck, Mike doesnt carry a single one ;-).
cheers,

AJ
Click to expand...

Not so fast. [emoji6]

More to follow.

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Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
AJ Soundfield said:
...
No idea where you got this misinformation.
AJ
Click to expand...

From Amir's posts at WBF. I should have put "rotating turntable" in quotes; that was indeed only a metaphor for the layout at Harman's labs, which has been described in detail by Sean Olive, as you note.

As far as dipoles, there are more every year, and aimed almost exclusively at the high-end, so certainly if you include the entire home speaker market they will (probably) never have more than a small fraction of it. OTOH, most people buying home speakers don't care about the results of Harman's tests either.
 
No, I cheated with Google Lens and the name at bottom of top pic made sense. But I'll let Mike break the news.

Ok take my word, Amir has never designed a speaker in his life, nor worked for Harman. Just a dealer. He's probably attended some of their dealer classes and been to the test lab with shuffler, so experienced their blind testing procedure, where its entirely possible to test dipoles, in stereo. No "limitations". It's my understanding that for a fee, one can even bring own speakers. Should one be so inclined.

cheers
AJ
 
AJ Soundfield said:
No, I cheated with Google Lens and the name at bottom of top pic made sense. But I'll let Mike break the news.

Ok take my word, Amir has never designed a speaker in his life, nor worked for Harman. Just a dealer. He's probably attended some of their dealer classes and been to the test lab with shuffler, so experienced their blind testing procedure, where its entirely possible to test dipoles, in stereo. No "limitations". It's my understanding that for a fee, one can even bring own speakers. Should one be so inclined.

cheers
AJ
Click to expand...
I’m quite willing to believe you over Amir, who has had an issue with inflating his importance in the audio world (maybe still does).
 
rbbert said:
I’m quite willing to believe you over Amir, who has had an issue with inflating his importance in the audio world (maybe still does).
Click to expand...
Just make sure youre sitting when you see the prices of Mikes new dipoles, in case you were interested :)
 
AJ Soundfield said:
Just make sure youre sitting when you see the prices of Mikes new dipoles, in case you were interested :)
Click to expand...

Compared to that other brand, they sound better and are a fraction of the price. $35k gets you a killer model.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
 
AJ Soundfield said:
Just make sure youre sitting when you see the prices of Mikes new dipoles, in case you were interested :)
Click to expand...

As I said, new dipoles are aimed at the high-end market, so even though there may be many new models, sales volume will remain small ;)
 
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