Samtastic!

A quick look at the measurements Devialet have made on speakers so far shows that very few are accurate in either amplitude or phase at the low end. SAM corrects this pretty effectively according to the data on most speakers.
The room effects are completely separate and different.
SAM is not capable of correcting for room effects but Dirac and the other room correction software can not do what SAM does either.
They are different and could/should be used together. A speaker with its internal errors corrected by SAM combined with a room with its errors corrected by one of the plethora of room correction devices should be the best of both worlds.
One can use room correction with any streaming solution but only correct speaker errors as thoroughly as SAM with a Devialet.
 
That is a limitation that can be changed in the future, if they desire.
One could choose 24/192 from the release of the configurator with the D-Premier nearly 4 years ago.
I wondered why the Default had been set at 24/96 for the internal ADC and Devialet said it was technically the better solution. I went back to the default 24/96 but didn't notice a difference of any consequence.
 
So what's the early consensus on SAM?? I read some love it, others not so much.

If I understand this article correctly, Jeff took the S1 SAM configuration and used it on his Q7's and proclaimed it to be the best match for the Q7's he's ever heard?

Hi fellas,

I turned SAM off when I switched over to the Q7s. Pretty big difference in bass response between an S1 and a Q7 :)

Thanks for reading!

Jeff
 
A quick look at the measurements Devialet have made on speakers so far shows that very few are accurate in either amplitude or phase at the low end. SAM corrects this pretty effectively according to the data on most speakers.
The room effects are completely separate and different.
SAM is not capable of correcting for room effects but Dirac and the other room correction software can not do what SAM does either.
They are different and could/should be used together. A speaker with its internal errors corrected by SAM combined with a room with its errors corrected by one of the plethora of room correction devices should be the best of both worlds.
One can use room correction with any streaming solution but only correct speaker errors as thoroughly as SAM with a Devialet.

They are most likely correcting only the power response of a speaker.....through a series of close distance measurements. This eliminates "the room response" from the equation. They could also accomplish this by measuring the speaker in an anechoic chamber, to eliminate room artifacts. They can make the speaker flat, or follow any curve they deem preferable. I predict this sort of DSP will become commonplace in the future.
 
Interesting thread. If we accept that the room is the single biggest component we have and if we accept (as I have come to do) that the Raidhos have unusual room responses .... it naturally follows that a combination of room correction and SAM may actually be the optimal way to deal with the Raidho bass response. Raidhos suggested room positioning (wide apart , heavily toed in , close to sidewall boundaries , close to listener plane) is sufficiently unusual that audiophiles will experience a number of issues arising out of that. Their room treatments , prior speaker positioning and most importantly, mindset are setup for another ballgame altogether . Raidhos are clean-slate speakers and a lot of those preconceptions have to be thrown out.

I completely rail against the idea that a number of expensive and elaborate power, speaker and interconnect choices have to be made in order to render the speakers truly workable. If that is the case , that suggests that Raidho has embarked on a new business strategy that involves ensnaring audiophiles in a continuous chain of connected purchases as they frustrate themselves into an orgy of Raidho-Ansuz buying . "Say it ain't so!!!"

The alternative - is that we are simply dealing with a product that is in many ways, not completely thought through and where the designers have made deliberate choices which have left the speakers tantalizingly close to greatness without actually ever achieving it. I note that they remain conspicuous by their absence from this & other Forums.

Either way , f1eng's suggestion above is a good one - a combination of SAM & room correction may be what the Raidhos need to get us , the consumer to where the Company should have taken us in the first place.

Hello ? Lars ? Michael? Are you listening?.........

Shodhan
 
It sounds like SAM is doing what Deqx have been doing for years with their speaker calibration.
 
Interesting thread. If we accept that the room is the single biggest component we have and if we accept (as I have come to do) that the Raidhos have unusual room responses .... it naturally follows that a combination of room correction and SAM may actually be the optimal way to deal with the Raidho bass response. Raidhos suggested room positioning (wide apart , heavily toed in , close to sidewall boundaries , close to listener plane) is sufficiently unusual that audiophiles will experience a number of issues arising out of that. Their room treatments , prior speaker positioning and most importantly, mindset are setup for another ballgame altogether . Raidhos are clean-slate speakers and a lot of those preconceptions have to be thrown out.

I completely rail against the idea that a number of expensive and elaborate power, speaker and interconnect choices have to be made in order to render the speakers truly workable. If that is the case , that suggests that Raidho has embarked on a new business strategy that involves ensnaring audiophiles in a continuous chain of connected purchases as they frustrate themselves into an orgy of Raidho-Ansuz buying . "Say it ain't so!!!"

The alternative - is that we are simply dealing with a product that is in many ways, not completely thought through and where the designers have made deliberate choices which have left the speakers tantalizingly close to greatness without actually ever achieving it. I note that they remain conspicuous by their absence from this & other Forums.

Either way , f1eng's suggestion above is a good one - a combination of SAM & room correction may be what the Raidhos need to get us , the consumer to where the Company should have taken us in the first place.

Hello ? Lars ? Michael? Are you listening?.........

Shodhan

This post is one of the most honest assessments of Raidho issues that I have read yet. The crazy aunt in the attic has been brought downstairs for all of the relatives to see.
 
Its downright blasphemy! [emoji2]


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Cello Pallette?

That said, let's not's be naive here. It always comes back to is the cure worse than the disease? Not to mention everyone's situation is different.
 
Back in the Dark Ages, audio equipment use to have things called "tone controls", but these were found to be tools of the devil and cast out. Because we know every audiophile has perfect speaker/room interface, output impedance and recordings.
Much better to lift those cables for any hint of brightness and for misbehaving bass, turn what was once a "family"/"living" room into something resembling an iso-ward at an asylum.

Ok, I'm done now.:D
 
Interesting thread. If we accept that the room is the single biggest component we have and if we accept (as I have come to do) that the Raidhos have unusual room responses .... it naturally follows that a combination of room correction and SAM may actually be the optimal way to deal with the Raidho bass response. Raidhos suggested room positioning (wide apart , heavily toed in , close to sidewall boundaries , close to listener plane) is sufficiently unusual that audiophiles will experience a number of issues arising out of that. Their room treatments , prior speaker positioning and most importantly, mindset are setup for another ballgame altogether . Raidhos are clean-slate speakers and a lot of those preconceptions have to be thrown out.

I completely rail against the idea that a number of expensive and elaborate power, speaker and interconnect choices have to be made in order to render the speakers truly workable. If that is the case , that suggests that Raidho has embarked on a new business strategy that involves ensnaring audiophiles in a continuous chain of connected purchases as they frustrate themselves into an orgy of Raidho-Ansuz buying . "Say it ain't so!!!"

The alternative - is that we are simply dealing with a product that is in many ways, not completely thought through and where the designers have made deliberate choices which have left the speakers tantalizingly close to greatness without actually ever achieving it. I note that they remain conspicuous by their absence from this & other Forums.

Either way , f1eng's suggestion above is a good one - a combination of SAM & room correction may be what the Raidhos need to get us , the consumer to where the Company should have taken us in the first place.

Hello ? Lars ? Michael? Are you listening?.........

Shodhan

Reading posts like this brings back memories. It was almost 2 years ago when Jock (The Professor) and myself purchased Raidho D1's at the same time. We were the first in the U.S. The proverbial guinea pigs. There was very little information on the web about the "C" series on the internet other than a few users in Asia who were very happy with them. There was nothing on the D series of course. Bob (Vintage Tube) as many will remember had purchased the Raidho C3.1's before the D series was announced. I attempted to reach Bob, but he has become quite the recluse after an incident on another forum. I spoke with his dealer, John at Audio Salon, and John said Bob continues to be very happy with his C3.1's. So, I went ahead and purchased the Raidho D1's from John in Miami. John tried to help, but he too was unfamiliar with the D series. So, Jock and I were left to struggle through the same things many of your are experiencing on our own.

Our problems became exacerbated when we both, once again, at the same time, purchased D3's (version 1). I can still remember to this day, getting them home, unpacking them with an audiophile friend, setting them up where I had the D1's, and sat there and listened to what can only be described as bad. The bloated bass, the stiff new drivers, combined with my challenging room, quickly turned my smile upside down. To use a line from Michael Kim, it sounded like I had 10 cheap subwoofers in the room. Jock too was experiencing similar challenges. But as we piled on the hours (we were hopeful that 500 hours was the magic number! :) ), we could hear the Raidho magic creeping through. We were determined. We worked together. Emailing. Texting. Talking. He was thinking up new ideas to tame the bass, I was constantly reaching out to Lars and Michael who were quite helpful, but many of their suggestions ultimately failed. I tried granite, cables, electrical grounding, mechanical grounding, whatever was suggested or any ideas Jock and I drummed up.

If any of you have bothered to watch the Room Acoustic video Myles posted the other day, you will note how the expert says listening in the near field reduces the speaker/room interaction (which is obvious). I tried listening in the near field, long wall, short wall, normal listening position,etc., and in my main room, the result was always the same. As a side note, I observed those who visited my listening room while I had the D3's and noted how most were VERY uncomfortable listening near field. Many would get up and walk and stand several feet behind the chair. They simply hated listening in near field. One guy said, "by the way those drivers are vibrating and popping, I think they are going to fly out and hit me in the head." Eventually, I just gave up and sold the D3 v1's.

I returned to Raidho with the launch of the D3 v2. This time around, I had better success. I tried the D3 v2 in my main room, but the bass wasn't much better. When I moved them into my rather large great room (45' x 15' x 13' ceilings), powered them with the VAC phi200's, I had finally got them. Bass problems were gone. The magic was there. I eventually sold them (as us gear swappers do), and I will say, I do honestly miss their 3D/holographic magic. I would love to own the D5's one day, but its unlikely to happen any time soon give the space requirements. I was going to go with D5's, but after seeing them and asking questions about their space requirements, I thought it best to hold off.

So, the point is, I know what all of you are going through. You can hear the magic. You can hear the potential. You want them to work sooooo badly. I will tell you it IS possible. I was able to get them to perfection - but it took a room where essentially the room wasn't in the equation. It took the right amps (VAC phi200's). It took weeks of experimenting with setup to get things dialed in just right. And yes, in the end, the gear swapping bug hit, I blew it all up and moved on.

When I spoke with Lars at RMAF, he showed me the treatments they are working on (of course, the cynic in me did think "are they selling me a problem only so they can sell me a solution?"). From what I heard, I think these treatments are well worth exploring.

I chuckled when I started to read about the DSP discussion and Raidho's. I thought to myself "yup, been there, done that too". When I had the Raidho D3 v1's, I tried the McIntosh MEN 220, DSPeaker 2.0, DEQX and several other DSP products. Yup, they worked, the boomy bass was fixed, but guess what? The magic was gone too.

Good luck - I really do hope you reach Raidho nirvana.
 
Reading posts like this brings back memories. It was almost 2 years ago when Jock (The Professor) and myself purchased Raidho D1's at the same time. We were the first in the U.S. The proverbial guinea pigs. There was very little information on the web about the "C" series on the internet other than a few users in Asia who were very happy with them. There was nothing on the D series of course. Bob (Vintage Tube) as many will remember had purchased the Raidho C3.1's before the D series was announced. I attempted to reach Bob, but he has become quite the recluse after an incident on another forum. I spoke with his dealer, John at Audio Salon, and John said Bob continues to be very happy with his C3.1's. So, I went ahead and purchased the Raidho D1's from John in Miami. John tried to help, but he too was unfamiliar with the D series. So, Jock and I were left to struggle through the same things many of your are experiencing on our own.

Our problems became exacerbated when we both, once again, at the same time, purchased D3's (version 1). I can still remember to this day, getting them home, unpacking them with an audiophile friend, setting them up where I had the D1's, and sat there and listened to what can only be described as bad. The bloated bass, the stiff new drivers, combined with my challenging room, quickly turned my smile upside down. To use a line from Michael Kim, it sounded like I had 10 cheap subwoofers in the room. Jock too was experiencing similar challenges. But as we piled on the hours (we were hopeful that 500 hours was the magic number! :) ), we could hear the Raidho magic creeping through. We were determined. We worked together. Emailing. Texting. Talking. He was thinking up new ideas to tame the bass, I was constantly reaching out to Lars and Michael who were quite helpful, but many of their suggestions ultimately failed. I tried granite, cables, electrical grounding, mechanical grounding, whatever was suggested or any ideas Jock and I drummed up.

If any of you have bothered to watch the Room Acoustic video Myles posted the other day, you will note how the expert says listening in the near field reduces the speaker/room interaction (which is obvious). I tried listening in the near field, long wall, short wall, normal listening position,etc., and in my main room, the result was always the same. As a side note, I observed those who visited my listening room while I had the D3's and noted how most were VERY uncomfortable listening near field. Many would get up and walk and stand several feet behind the chair. They simply hated listening in near field. One guy said, "by the way those drivers are vibrating and popping, I think they are going to fly out and hit me in the head." Eventually, I just gave up and sold the D3 v1's.

I returned to Raidho with the launch of the D3 v2. This time around, I had better success. I tried the D3 v2 in my main room, but the bass wasn't much better. When I moved them into my rather large great room (45' x 15' x 13' ceilings), powered them with the VAC phi200's, I had finally got them. Bass problems were gone. The magic was there. I eventually sold them (as us gear swappers do), and I will say, I do honestly miss their 3D/holographic magic. I would love to own the D5's one day, but its unlikely to happen any time soon give the space requirements. I was going to go with D5's, but after seeing them and asking questions about their space requirements, I thought it best to hold off.

So, the point is, I know what all of you are going through. You can hear the magic. You can hear the potential. You want them to work sooooo badly. I will tell you it IS possible. I was able to get them to perfection - but it took a room where essentially the room wasn't in the equation. It took the right amps (VAC phi200's). It took weeks of experimenting with setup to get things dialed in just right. And yes, in the end, the gear swapping bug hit, I blew it all up and moved on.

When I spoke with Lars at RMAF, he showed me the treatments they are working on (of course, the cynic in me did think "are they selling me a problem only so they can sell me a solution?"). From what I heard, I think these treatments are well worth exploring.

I chuckled when I started to read about the DSP discussion and Raidho's. I thought to myself "yup, been there, done that too". When I had the Raidho D3 v1's, I tried the McIntosh MEN 220, DSPeaker 2.0, DEQX and several other DSP products. Yup, they worked, the boomy bass was fixed, but guess what? The magic was gone too.

Good luck - I really do hope you reach Raidho nirvana.

When you get there, are you greeted by a leprechaun with a pot of gold? :D
 
They sounded very good at Rhapsody in NYC when I heard them. Deeeep soundstage.
 
To be honest, I have to wonder why bother with raidhos at all? Lots of other superb speakers that don't have these problems. Many that are cheaper actually.

I heard D3s recently and my first comment was "wow, that's a lot of bass" and the room was quite large with large openings at side and back. And the speakers were well clear of room boundaries. And the electronics used were not bass bandits, to the contrary.
 
To be honest, I have to wonder why bother with raidhos at all? Lots of other superb speakers that don't have these problems. Many that are cheaper actually.

I heard D3s recently and my first comment was "wow, that's a lot of bass" and the room was quite large with large openings at side and back. And the speakers were well clear of room boundaries. And the electronics used were not bass bandits, to the contrary.

:yahoo1:
 
When you get there, are you greeted by a leprechaun with a pot of gold? :D

Great post Mike . It nicely encapsulates the wonder and the frustration that are inseperably bound together as part of the Raidho experience . The "magic" of the Raidho experience may however , not be so special after all. Sure, they're great speakers but as Jax points out below , there are lots of those...without the issues. Which brings up an interesting question - is the Raidho that special ? Or is it the setup & configuration, which is so different from the protocol that audiophiles normally engage in , that's a large part of the formula? I mean most of us wouldn't think about the wide stance/close to sidewalls/heavy toe-in/nearfield combined configuration when we're setting up our speakers . I think this actually would work for a number of speakers , without the attendant bass issues which are a brand-specific issue.

One example - at the NYAS this year, I thought one of the best sounding rooms was GamuT Audio's (another Danish speaker - what's with that?). I've attached pics below - take a look at the stance - wide-apart. Pretty close to the side wall. Well into the room , away from the front wall. And crazy toe-in with axes crossing well in front of the listener, actually far more than you would use with Raidhos. The result - just outstanding - Immersive sound , 3-dimensional soundstage , great detail retrieval and image saturation . Sound familiar ? A wonderful sonic performance WITHOUT bass issues. It may well be that you could effectively create your own sonic nirvana by attempting this type of setup . It may not work for every speaker out there , but I bet it would work for a lot of them. And THAT - may help to knock Raidho off this IMHO, unjustified pedestal.

Shodhan

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New York 2014: GamuT plays big, bad wolf and blows us away | The Audio Traveler
 

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Shodhan - another Danish speaker that is no slouch:

evenimentEpicon8.jpg


DALI EPICON 8 | New High-End Reference Loudspeaker

I've had mine for the better part of 6 weeks now and I'm really loving them. They have vocals to die for (probably the best I've heard in my family room). Top end is airy and sweet and has this "ease" to it. Bass is defined and proportionate. They produce a HUGE soundstage. Setup took me only a few minutes (playing them straight on as they are designed to do - really helps). They look gorgeous. They are the quintessential plug-n-play speaker.

I would characterize their sound as slightly warm, full-bodied, smooth and very musical.
 
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