M
What High End BS Claims have you found to actually work in your system?
I just read this. I think this discussion of isolation is an interesting one. We talk about isolation, which is essentially isolating the energy created from one device to another - for example, speakers creating energy and that energy getting transmitted back into an amplifier. But my question is this: if we isolate these devices, where does the energy go? Electronic devices such as amps, DAC's, whatever, create energy at a rate of 50-60 cycles per second. If this energy is "isolated", where does it go? Well, it goes back into that same device - which is ultimately worse (sonically) than if it was allowed to properly dissipate.
Racks that claim to do the same thing, also create the same problems IMHO.
I believe isolation DOES change the sound, but over time, also creates a dry, lifeless sound because all the energy is stored in the device(s) and not allowed to dissipate.
The only exception I have found is digital devices such as DAC's, Network Music Players and CD players due to their susceptibility to jitter. I have found they are very susceptible to the energy from other devices and can, potentially, benefit from some isolation.
If you notice, Nordost show demos of their Sort Fut Cones are always with a digital device like a CD player and never with an amp.
I just read this. I think this discussion of isolation is an interesting one. We talk about isolation, which is essentially isolating the energy created from one device to another - for example, speakers creating energy and that energy getting transmitted back into an amplifier. But my question is this: if we isolate these devices, where does the energy go? Electronic devices such as amps, DAC's, whatever, create energy at a rate of 50-60 cycles per second. If this energy is "isolated", where does it go? Well, it goes back into that same device - which is ultimately worse (sonically) than if it was allowed to properly dissipate.
Racks that claim to do the same thing, also create the same problems IMHO.
I believe isolation DOES change the sound, but over time, also creates a dry, lifeless sound because all the energy is stored in the device(s) and not allowed to dissipate.
The only exception I have found is digital devices such as DAC's, Network Music Players and CD players due to their susceptibility to jitter. I have found they are very susceptible to the energy from other devices and can, potentially, benefit from some isolation.
If you notice, Nordost show demos of their Sort Fut Cones are always with a digital device like a CD player and never with an amp.
iosiP
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Re: What High End BS Claims have you found to actually work in your system?
Mike, energy is not stored or sent back, it is transformed in other (more benign) forms of energy like heat. I do agree that the term used (isolation) is incorrect, I would call it conversion!
machinehead, you should try the best high-end tweak of all - it's called a secretary (or "personal assistant", for those being chauffeured in Bentleys to the grocery store).
Mike, energy is not stored or sent back, it is transformed in other (more benign) forms of energy like heat. I do agree that the term used (isolation) is incorrect, I would call it conversion!
machinehead, you should try the best high-end tweak of all - it's called a secretary (or "personal assistant", for those being chauffeured in Bentleys to the grocery store).
What High End BS Claims have you found to actually work in your system?
That's not correct. Energy is released (and must be released) often in the form of vibration, by the component. Energy that remains stored due to too much isolation remains in the device and negatively affects the sound - in my opinion.
Stillpoints and Nordost Sort Fut purpose is isolation which in turns transmits that energy into heat (or so they claim).
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That's not correct. Energy is released (and must be released) often in the form of vibration, by the component. Energy that remains stored due to too much isolation remains in the device and negatively affects the sound - in my opinion.
Stillpoints and Nordost Sort Fut purpose is isolation which in turns transmits that energy into heat (or so they claim).
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
apdoc2004
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Re: What High End BS Claims have you found to actually work in your system?
Hi Mike,
Interesting discussion. Does that mean you are not using Stillpoints in your system. What is your take on using Stillpoints footers with floor standing speakers? Did they make the sound too lean & sterile?
Thanks,
Anshul
Hi Mike,
Interesting discussion. Does that mean you are not using Stillpoints in your system. What is your take on using Stillpoints footers with floor standing speakers? Did they make the sound too lean & sterile?
Thanks,
Anshul
iosiP
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Re: What High End BS Claims have you found to actually work in your system?
P.S. Sorry Mike but I'm an electronics engineer, so you have to accept me as such
So this is not isolation but "conversion" (or transformation, sorry but English is not my first language). Isolating something means not allowing energy generated by the "thing" to be transmitted nor energy generated by other "things" to be received, so the tweaks you are talking about do not provide isolation (at least not bidirectional) but only conversion, with a modicum of unidirectional isolation.
P.S. Sorry Mike but I'm an electronics engineer, so you have to accept me as such
Re: What High End BS Claims have you found to actually work in your system?
I use isolation platforms/footers for digital source, preamp, amp and speakers and even for the Shunyata Triton power conditioner. For each component, the platforms/footers result in a very significant improvement in SQ - not subtle at all.
Triton Power Conditioner > Esoteric K-01 > Ayre K-5xeMP > Bryston 28B SST > VA The Music
I use isolation platforms/footers for digital source, preamp, amp and speakers and even for the Shunyata Triton power conditioner. For each component, the platforms/footers result in a very significant improvement in SQ - not subtle at all.
Triton Power Conditioner > Esoteric K-01 > Ayre K-5xeMP > Bryston 28B SST > VA The Music
Re: What High End BS Claims have you found to actually work in your system?
Ok, thanks for the clarification on the technical terms. So I guess everyone should be calling Stillpoints and the like, conversion products rather than isolation devices?
So this is not isolation but "conversion" (or transformation, sorry but English is not my first language). Isolating something means not allowing energy generated by the "thing" to be transmitted nor energy generated by other "things" to be received, so the tweaks you are talking about do not provide isolation (at least not bidirectional) but only conversion, with a modicum of unidirectional isolation.
P.S. Sorry Mike but I'm an electronics engineer, so you have to accept me as such
Ok, thanks for the clarification on the technical terms. So I guess everyone should be calling Stillpoints and the like, conversion products rather than isolation devices?
What High End BS Claims have you found to actually work in your system?
Yes. As an early adopter of Stillpoints (Ultra 5's and SS's) and similar products like Ansuz DARKZ, I felt yes, they do make a change, but after a long listen of many months, ultimately, not a change for the better in my system. The sound became dry and lifeless (or lean and sterile as you say). HOWEVER, I am using Ansuz DARKZ under my Lumin and it's PSU and feel that does make a positive difference on all my digital devices.
My take on them is a little different. If your room is very very lively, I think even long term, they can make a positive improvement. But if your room has even modest dampening, you will need to experiment and it takes a couple of months to really determine if that difference is truly "better" or not.
Yes. As an early adopter of Stillpoints (Ultra 5's and SS's) and similar products like Ansuz DARKZ, I felt yes, they do make a change, but after a long listen of many months, ultimately, not a change for the better in my system. The sound became dry and lifeless (or lean and sterile as you say). HOWEVER, I am using Ansuz DARKZ under my Lumin and it's PSU and feel that does make a positive difference on all my digital devices.
My take on them is a little different. If your room is very very lively, I think even long term, they can make a positive improvement. But if your room has even modest dampening, you will need to experiment and it takes a couple of months to really determine if that difference is truly "better" or not.
bzr
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Re: What High End BS Claims have you found to actually work in your system?
Or, it could be meant that once the energy is received in said device it is isolated. Hence, it is isolating!
So this is not isolation but "conversion" (or transformation, sorry but English is not my first language). Isolating something means not allowing energy generated by the "thing" to be transmitted nor energy generated by other "things" to be received, so the tweaks you are talking about do not provide isolation (at least not bidirectional) but only conversion, with a modicum of unidirectional isolation.
P.S. Sorry Mike but I'm an electronics engineer, so you have to accept me as such
Or, it could be meant that once the energy is received in said device it is isolated. Hence, it is isolating!
Re: What High End BS Claims have you found to actually work in your system?
I thought the 2 schools out there were isolation (like Black Ravioli/sorbothene/wobblies) and evacuators-mechanical grounders(Stillpoints/sistrum stands, etc) that wick the vibration to "earth" or some other huge inert reservoir?
There was a huge thread about this year ago on one of the popular forums, but I cant recall now. Could have been WBF?
I thought the 2 schools out there were isolation (like Black Ravioli/sorbothene/wobblies) and evacuators-mechanical grounders(Stillpoints/sistrum stands, etc) that wick the vibration to "earth" or some other huge inert reservoir?
There was a huge thread about this year ago on one of the popular forums, but I cant recall now. Could have been WBF?
Enoch Root
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Re: What High End BS Claims have you found to actually work in your system?
QUOTE=wisnon;113180]I thought the 2 schools out there were isolation (like Black Ravioli/sorbothene/wobblies) and evacuators-mechanical (Stillponts/sistrum stands, etc) grounders that wick the vibration to "earth" or some other huge inert reservoir?[/QUOTE]
This is my understanding, also. The "mechanical grounding" school of thought is represented in this Stillpoints review by Roy Gregory:
Stillpoints Ultra Mini, Ultra SS and Ultra 5 Footers, and ESS Equipment Rack - The Audio Beat - www.TheAudioBeat.com
QUOTE=wisnon;113180]I thought the 2 schools out there were isolation (like Black Ravioli/sorbothene/wobblies) and evacuators-mechanical (Stillponts/sistrum stands, etc) grounders that wick the vibration to "earth" or some other huge inert reservoir?[/QUOTE]
This is my understanding, also. The "mechanical grounding" school of thought is represented in this Stillpoints review by Roy Gregory:
Stillpoints Ultra Mini, Ultra SS and Ultra 5 Footers, and ESS Equipment Rack - The Audio Beat - www.TheAudioBeat.com
Of course, the cynic would say: when I see resonance control devices under every guitar amp, drum kit, etc. at a live concert, I'll buy into them! 
Of course, the cynic would say: when I see resonance control devices under every guitar amp, drum kit, etc. at a live concert, I'll buy into them!
I'm not sure exactly what you mean by this, unless it is totally in jest? In any case, I very much doubt anyone would want resonance control devices in this setting, since the characteristic resonances are usually a big part of the desired sound.
Although not specifically relevant to the question which is the thread title, you might take a look at the comments, which offer far more than the article itself
Myles B. Astor
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'Twasn't that the article that Stereophile rejected?
BlueFox
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I have Mapleshade Micropoint brass footers under everything, except for the Pass amps, in both the stereo and HT systems. I think they work great, and like the result. I was reading someplace about vibrations, and it was talking about how the slightest vibrations affect the electrical signal as it goes through the circuit. Of course, the speakers are spiked for the same reason, drain the vibrations from the cabinet.
This was posted in another forum, and is interesting. While it deals with speaker vibrations it is relevant for any vibrations.
"Okay, please allow me to get technical and a bit mathematical for a stint with a long read from Louis Motek of LessLoss Audio. Please note that this is a long read but there is a point to all of this at the end of the post, for those who are interested.
Micro vibrations - Why do so many people think that microvibration control is a myth? All those tricky footers, and weird cables, and stands. Isn’t it a business founded on trickery and hypnotism? On the selling of snake-oil?
Microvibration control is serious business. After all, your entire hearing is based on it. And after reading this article, your entire thinking about audio will be, too. The logic is right here in front of you. All you have to do is look at the numbers.
And those numbers are, Mr. Wise Guy?
The loudest sound you can withstand before sustaining temporary damage to your ears is about 123 dB SPL. You know, the sound from right behind a jet plane. In order to produce this amount of sound pressure, you may find it surprising to learn that the air molecules themselves get displaced all of 11 microns. That’s right. 10 TIMES LESS than your average human hair is thick.
Fast forward. It is now late at night. All in the house is quiet. You can’t sleep. Far, far away, outside, you can make out the chirping of a lonely cricket. It is very faint, yet you are sure that you hear it distinctly. This sound is caused by a vibration of air molecules which are displaced by only 11 picometers. This is about 1/20th the diameter of an average sized atom.
You can begin to appreciate that the human ear is a remarkably sensitive detector of vibrations. Your bare hearing already functions on a subatomic level of precision.
But what about your equipment? What should it care about microvibrations? It doesn’t have hears, does it? Well, you are wrong. It does have ears, and by far more sensitive ones than even yours.
Metal conducts electricity because it contains countless shared electrons amongst its atoms. Together, the zillions and gazillions of these individual outer shell electronics make up a cloud of negative charge. This is similar to the way in which the zillions and gazillions of individual atoms in the air make up an invisible cloud of something we breath (and sneeze into) which we call air. Air provides a conduit for pressure vibrations to traverse. Likewise, the electron cloud in a metal provides a conduit for charge vibrations to traverse.
Now that you understand that electrons together make up something akin to a malleable gas of charge, you can see how it can be vibrated just like air pressure is vibrated to create a sound wave in air. The air is stuck to the earth via gravity, yet remains a fluid. Electrons are stuck to the metal via subatomic bonds, yet they act like a fluid as well.
So how much does this fluid vibrate in YOUR sound system, and where did Diana Krall’s voice come from in the first place? When the needle vibrates in the record groove, a microvibration of its tip causes a small current to form. How small? About 0.191 nW (nanowatts). A nanowatt is a thousand millionth of a watt. That’s 1/1000000000 of a watt. So 0.191 nW is only about a fifth of a nanowatt.
You can’t be serious! Nobody can ever hear that!
Of course not. That’s why your system first amplifies it. How many times? Well, let’s say your speakers play at a comfortable listening level when they are getting 12 Watts of power. That’s a typical real-world number for most speakers’ sensitivity. So we have to amplify the original signal which was 0.191 nW 63 BILLION times, in order to get 12 Watts of power that we can enjoy.
0.000000000191 x 63,000,000,000 = 12
Let’s say that these 12 watts generate a sound at 80 dB SPL at your listening chair. That’s where you’ve placed your ears last time you checked. When the sound wave of Diana Krall’s 500 Hz note finally hits your eardrum at 80 dB SPL, the actual molecules in the air are vibrating at only 0.15 micrometers maximum displacement. That’s only 0.00015 millimeters.
Next time your wife tells you to turn it down, you are now well-equipped to respond, “but it’s only 0.15 microns displacement, dear!”
That’s for analogue, but this is a Digital World today. With digital, it makes no difference.
Boy are you wrong! In digital, the problem is the placement of all the samples in the time domain (Jitter). People can hear the results of digital signal Jitter amounts of less than 50 pS. That’s picoseconds, which would be 50/100000000000 of a second). The samples are going by so fast, but we have, with redbook CD audio, 44.1 thousand (x2 for stereo) chances of hearing this tiny displacement of time per second, so we do pretty well at it, since they are all more or less imperfect.
Next time you are at a football field, go to one of the goal lines, and stand on it. Look all the way across the field at the other goal line. You are looking at one sample. Yes, the far goal line is the next sample in the audio. Now take but one step towards it. Make it a millimeter step, please. That is the amount of Jitter you can hear in an audio stream! Of course it never occurs only once, but in a statistical way, this small deviation from the perfect goal line is what you are able to hear in the audio signal as an artificial distortion, when it is off each time by a maximum amount of that much.
So, as you can see, we are well equipped to hear tiny microvibrations, especially when these are amplified 63 billion times before we take a listen with our very sensitive hearing to investigate what it is that might really be going on at a sub-atomic level in our sound systems’ circuitry.
"
Speaker spikes, what's the point? - Polk Audio
This was posted in another forum, and is interesting. While it deals with speaker vibrations it is relevant for any vibrations.
"Okay, please allow me to get technical and a bit mathematical for a stint with a long read from Louis Motek of LessLoss Audio. Please note that this is a long read but there is a point to all of this at the end of the post, for those who are interested.
Micro vibrations - Why do so many people think that microvibration control is a myth? All those tricky footers, and weird cables, and stands. Isn’t it a business founded on trickery and hypnotism? On the selling of snake-oil?
Microvibration control is serious business. After all, your entire hearing is based on it. And after reading this article, your entire thinking about audio will be, too. The logic is right here in front of you. All you have to do is look at the numbers.
And those numbers are, Mr. Wise Guy?
The loudest sound you can withstand before sustaining temporary damage to your ears is about 123 dB SPL. You know, the sound from right behind a jet plane. In order to produce this amount of sound pressure, you may find it surprising to learn that the air molecules themselves get displaced all of 11 microns. That’s right. 10 TIMES LESS than your average human hair is thick.
Fast forward. It is now late at night. All in the house is quiet. You can’t sleep. Far, far away, outside, you can make out the chirping of a lonely cricket. It is very faint, yet you are sure that you hear it distinctly. This sound is caused by a vibration of air molecules which are displaced by only 11 picometers. This is about 1/20th the diameter of an average sized atom.
You can begin to appreciate that the human ear is a remarkably sensitive detector of vibrations. Your bare hearing already functions on a subatomic level of precision.
But what about your equipment? What should it care about microvibrations? It doesn’t have hears, does it? Well, you are wrong. It does have ears, and by far more sensitive ones than even yours.
Metal conducts electricity because it contains countless shared electrons amongst its atoms. Together, the zillions and gazillions of these individual outer shell electronics make up a cloud of negative charge. This is similar to the way in which the zillions and gazillions of individual atoms in the air make up an invisible cloud of something we breath (and sneeze into) which we call air. Air provides a conduit for pressure vibrations to traverse. Likewise, the electron cloud in a metal provides a conduit for charge vibrations to traverse.
Now that you understand that electrons together make up something akin to a malleable gas of charge, you can see how it can be vibrated just like air pressure is vibrated to create a sound wave in air. The air is stuck to the earth via gravity, yet remains a fluid. Electrons are stuck to the metal via subatomic bonds, yet they act like a fluid as well.
So how much does this fluid vibrate in YOUR sound system, and where did Diana Krall’s voice come from in the first place? When the needle vibrates in the record groove, a microvibration of its tip causes a small current to form. How small? About 0.191 nW (nanowatts). A nanowatt is a thousand millionth of a watt. That’s 1/1000000000 of a watt. So 0.191 nW is only about a fifth of a nanowatt.
You can’t be serious! Nobody can ever hear that!
Of course not. That’s why your system first amplifies it. How many times? Well, let’s say your speakers play at a comfortable listening level when they are getting 12 Watts of power. That’s a typical real-world number for most speakers’ sensitivity. So we have to amplify the original signal which was 0.191 nW 63 BILLION times, in order to get 12 Watts of power that we can enjoy.
0.000000000191 x 63,000,000,000 = 12
Let’s say that these 12 watts generate a sound at 80 dB SPL at your listening chair. That’s where you’ve placed your ears last time you checked. When the sound wave of Diana Krall’s 500 Hz note finally hits your eardrum at 80 dB SPL, the actual molecules in the air are vibrating at only 0.15 micrometers maximum displacement. That’s only 0.00015 millimeters.
Next time your wife tells you to turn it down, you are now well-equipped to respond, “but it’s only 0.15 microns displacement, dear!”
That’s for analogue, but this is a Digital World today. With digital, it makes no difference.
Boy are you wrong! In digital, the problem is the placement of all the samples in the time domain (Jitter). People can hear the results of digital signal Jitter amounts of less than 50 pS. That’s picoseconds, which would be 50/100000000000 of a second). The samples are going by so fast, but we have, with redbook CD audio, 44.1 thousand (x2 for stereo) chances of hearing this tiny displacement of time per second, so we do pretty well at it, since they are all more or less imperfect.
Next time you are at a football field, go to one of the goal lines, and stand on it. Look all the way across the field at the other goal line. You are looking at one sample. Yes, the far goal line is the next sample in the audio. Now take but one step towards it. Make it a millimeter step, please. That is the amount of Jitter you can hear in an audio stream! Of course it never occurs only once, but in a statistical way, this small deviation from the perfect goal line is what you are able to hear in the audio signal as an artificial distortion, when it is off each time by a maximum amount of that much.
So, as you can see, we are well equipped to hear tiny microvibrations, especially when these are amplified 63 billion times before we take a listen with our very sensitive hearing to investigate what it is that might really be going on at a sub-atomic level in our sound systems’ circuitry.
Speaker spikes, what's the point? - Polk Audio
Not exactly
The same authors submitted an earlier 4 part article (which provided the foundation for this new series of articles) to Stereophile, where JA essentialy "pocket vetoed" it by ignoring it until the authors submitted to TAS instead.
That's my whole point.
Hi Bud,
Good post. Do you use any resonance control devices(RCD) under your Pass amps?
The Harmonix RCDs under my monos produce a night and day improvement.
Cheers! J.
Shunyata Triton > Esoteric K-01 > Ayre K-5xeMP > Bryston 28B SST monos > VA The Music
Good post. Do you use any resonance control devices(RCD) under your Pass amps?
The Harmonix RCDs under my monos produce a night and day improvement.
Cheers! J.
Shunyata Triton > Esoteric K-01 > Ayre K-5xeMP > Bryston 28B SST monos > VA The Music