Regenerators vs. Conditioners

[FlexibleAudio]

Max current output rating for the XA160.5s is 36 amps. You're gonna need a pair of *big* isolation transformers. :wacko:

And it's 50 amps for the XA 160.8s.

Max current is not rated current; max is max, which is close to instantaneous not continuos. I would size the transformer to cover max or 3 to 4 times rated if you don't know max. A 75 amp isolation transformer should work well with XA150's. I know Frank on this and other forums uses the 90 amp Torus on his XS 150's with great success. The 3 to 4 times is an estimate with a safety factor that Torus recommends. The point is many install way too small of isolation transformers (less than 1 to 2 times rated current), get poor results and then make blanket statements that all IT's kill dynamics. It just ain't so.

 

[FlexibleAudio]

What will it take for 320W per channel?

If you have the "max current" rating from you amp specs, use it to size the transformer. If not, calculate an estimated "rated current" and apply a safety factor of 3 or 4. Worst case, assuming low impedance speakers, you could see rated current at around 9 amps (960 watts at 2 ohms divided by 110v) times 4 (safety factor) times 2 (channels) = 72 amps.

 

[The Sandman]

The XS 150 has a max rated current output of "only" 30 amps - the XA 160.5 is rated at 36 amps (a 20% increase) and the XA 160.8 is rated at 50 amps! I'm sure there are transformers big enough to handle any size amplifier out there but at some point it becomes impractical - I supposed I'd need two of the Torus wall mounts then - a 100 amp unit for my XA160.8s and another for my powered subs and front end.

 

[FlexibleAudio]

Your Pass amps have capacitance in their power supplies to cover a chunk of instantaneous power also. Torus recommendations are for the theoretical limits. My Soulutions have 45 amps instantaneous. I believe a single 90 amp wall unit with 10 gauge lines to your receptacles would be a great source of clean power for your set-up. Remember peak instantaneous current is the most extreme musical passage at very high volumes.

The alternatives are to plug your amps into the 14 gauge (?) in the wall which may have limited instantaneous current due to high-gauge, long wire runs and may be dirty, or rewire from box, or use passive power conditioners. I did my power system to not just block outside dirt but to increase my instantaneous current through big available transformer reserves and short-run, low-gauge wiring (Furutech POCC) from the transformer to the receptacles.

 

[mauidan]

I've had my system(D400, file player's linear PSU and transport) plugged into a PS Audio P5 for a month now.

Here's the power draw at the loudest levels I ever listen to:

I can't detect any limiting of dynamics verses plugging the amps directly into the wall.

 

[BlueFox]

Correction! It's better to plug your amps directly into the outlet. Going though a power conditioner, isolation transformer and regenerators seem to take a bit of life out of the SQ. I have my amps plugged directly into the wall.

I guess it depends on what the power conditioner is doing. I find my amps sound much, much better when plugged into a Shunyata Cyclops versus being plugged directly into the wall.

http://audioshark.org/shunyata-research-78/cyclops-v2-first-impressions-7798.html

 

[The Sandman]

I guess it depends on what the power conditioner is doing. I find my amps sound much, much better when plugged into a Shunyata Cyclops versus being plugged directly into the wall.

http://audioshark.org/shunyata-research-78/cyclops-v2-first-impressions-7798.html

The X600.5s have the same peak current rating as the XA160.5s - 36 amps. George had both of his XA160.5 amps and both of his speakers (Martin Logan Summit XLs with 400 watts/channel of powered woofers) plugged into a single BPT 3.5 Ultra. It may well be a different story if he uses a single BPT on each amp and a third BPT for his front end and speakers. All I can say for sure is that his system sounded better... much better with the amps plugged directly into the walls than into the one BPT 3.5 Ultra. And AFAIK, Pass Labs recommends against the use of power conditioners for their amps.

 

[FlexibleAudio]

The X600.5s have the same peak current rating as the XA160.5s - 36 amps. George had both of his XA160.5 amps and both of his speakers (Martin Logan Summit XLs with 400 watts/channel of powered woofers) plugged into a single BPT 3.5 Ultra. It may well be a different story if he uses a single BPT on each amp and a third BPT for his front end and speakers. All I can say for sure is that his system sounded better... much better with the amps plugged directly into the walls than into the one BPT 3.5 Ultra. And AFAIK, Pass Labs recommends against the use of power conditioners for their amps.

It is not at all surprising the wall sounded much better. A single 20 amp BPT would likely limit instantaneous current against that level of demand. That doesn't mean you can't do better than the wall regardless of Nelson's warnings. I believe he is just protecting people from doing more harm than good by using conditioners that limit instantaneous current.

 

[FlexibleAudio]

I've had my system(D400, file player's linear PSU and transport) plugged into a PS Audio P5 for a month now.

Here's the power draw at the loudest levels I ever listen to:

I can't detect any limiting of dynamics verses plugging the amps directly into the wall.

I am guessing a fairly small room with high efficiency speakers and not super high spl's? Also, FWIW I am pretty sure the amp draw you see is continuous not instant.

 

[mauidan]

I am guessing a fairly small room with high efficiency speakers and not super high spl's? Also, FWIW I am pretty sure the amp draw you see is continuous not instant.

Wrong.

 

[The Sandman]

"Limiting of dynamics" is not a good description of what we heard on George's system through the BPT - it played plenty loud. What I noticed was some harshness and congestion in the mids and highs on loud passages.

 

[FlexibleAudio]

Wrong.

Ahhh...... thats cool. Are you going to clue me in? I am curious how you do dat. I know the D400's linear PS is famous for its efficiency but the laws of physics are the laws of physics.

 

[FlexibleAudio]

"Limiting of dynamics" is not a good description of what we heard on George's system through the BPT - it played plenty loud. What I noticed was some harshness and congestion in the mids and highs on loud passages.

Howard, I wonder if that could be not just lack of instantaneous current but lack of continuous current. That is a big load for a 20 amp transformer.

 

[mauidan]

Ahhh...... thats cool. Are you going to clue me in? I am curious how you do dat. I know the D400's linear PS is famous for its efficiency but the laws of physics are the laws of physics.

The D400 doesn't have a linear power supply.

 

[FlexibleAudio]

The D400 doesn't have a linear power supply.

Duh....I guess I said the opposite of what I was thinking cuz your reference to your sources linear supply stuck in my mind. Devi's got those fancy high efficiency smps feeding their class d's don't they? (At least I recalled they are high efficiency.)

Anyway, you still going to keep your magic a secret? Tesla, Edison, Einstein, Newton and I are wondering how you play super high spl's in a large room with low efficiency speakers using 108 watts. Do tell!

 

[bzr]

This is like tooth pulling!

 

[jdandy]

This is like tooth pulling!

 

[mauidan]

This is like tooth pulling!

LOL!

 

[bzr]

Ha! Too funny. How many amps are the pliers Dan? :snicker:

 

[Audioseduction]

Ok guys. I have installed 2 additional 20A circuits which makes a total of 4 20A dedicated circuits. Now each Pass Labs XA160.5s has a dedicated 20A line. Not short on power now!