Regen, Wow!

Steve,

That query was posed to JS as well and the answer seems to be that even the Regen with its optimised PDN still creates its own (though orders of magnitude lower) PHY noise and the better the upstream components, the lower the Regen endemic PHY noise will be.

Furthermore, recall that I mentioned the yet untouchable MAC layer noise, (IIRC, MAC means Media Acces Control)...well then you would want great upstream components (USB cards/Cables/Hubs) to keep the MAC noise creation as low as possible, since we currently can do nothing to eliminate it.
 
Ok, I'll look at placing an order after the next batch build.

I suppose these can be daisy chained. Would there be any benefit in doing so especially incorporating one in the source as well, eg. Inside a CAPs?
 
Steve said:
Ok, I'll look at placing an order after the next batch build.

I suppose these can be daisy chained. Would there be any benefit in doing so especially incorporating one in the source as well, eg. Inside a CAPs?
Click to expand...
Better to have it after the exit from the Caps USB out and then just before entering the Dac USB downstream (best if you use solid connector to the Dac and not even a short USB cable).

One last point Alex made to me. The Regen is not an advantage built into a Dac, UNLESS the Dac has separate transformer (not just separate secondary winding off same transformer) dedicated to the Regen with separate grounding, so 2 IEC power cords. This lis likely only possible with boutique Dac makers that can do fast turnaround in design or bespoke builds. A big part of why the Regen works well is the grounding facilitated by the 4 layer PCB used in the Regen.
 
Can I ask whether the Regen is expected to have a positive impact between a DAC like the EMM DAC2X or Bricasti M1 and one of the Aurender streamers like the N10 or the X100L? Or is the device best used between computer-based music files and a DAC?

Thanks
 
The following is a cut and paste from the most recent issue of Jim Smith's Quarter Notes newsletter#17. I got Jim's permission to post this here.

Better sound for your computer audio – without breaking the bank

regen.png
A few months ago, several threads began on the forums at Computer Audiophile.com. They were discussing a new device, the Uptone Audio USB REGEN.
I ignored the threads at first, but they continued to grow steadily. Finally, I took a look and discovered who was behind this tiny upstart audio company. Without going into those details, let me simply say that it turned out that I personally knew and respected one of the two principals, and I knew the other by his excellent reputation.
I am not going to waste your time listing all of the reasons why this item works so well. At the end of this article, you will find a link to the Uptone Audio website and two of the CA threads about the REGEN.
However, a few observations might be useful.
First, this only applies to those systems that use a USB cable to their USB-asynchronous-capable DAC, typically from a computer. For example, I use a MacBook Pro Retina with SSD, stripped down for only audio, sending the music signal via a Light Harmonic Lightspeed split USB cable to my Ayre QB-9 DSD DAC.
The REGEN is a small device that plugs into the DAC’s USB input. It gets fed the USB signal from my computer.
The REGEN is $175.00. It makes a difference - comparable in most systems – to components costing many hundreds - if not thousands - of dollars!
Frankly, I didn’t expect much because my digital components were very good. That’s probably why I was shocked at how greatly the REGEN improved my system.
And I still don’t see how it could make such an easily audible difference. But it does.
Bass is not just more tuneful and agile, it’s more powerful. As I am sure you do, I have a number of recordings that I thought I knew how strong their bass drum or organ notes were. This was not a subtle effect. In fact, I would wager it may even be measurable.
Instruments and vocals have a greater sense of palpability. Sounds such as guitar notes have a greater harmonic density. There seems to be more presence and even more spatial cues as well. From what I can surmise, these effects may vary from system to system, depending on the computer, DAC, and USB cable.
I bought mine directly from Uptone Audio, just like everyone else. At $175, I couldn’t bring myself to ask for an industry discount. And from what I now know that it does, I’d easily consider paying 5-10 times that price.
Apart from Get Better Sound or maybe a RoomPlay session (OK, I am hopelessly biased), I cannot think of a better buy in audio just now. And Uptone has an affordable power supply upgrade in the works as well. I definitely plan to buy that - if it does anything like I suspect that it might, I’ll report back on it in a future Quarter Notes.
In these times, when audio components are sold at amazingly higher and higher prices, the reasonable price for this item makes it a best buy. REGEN sales are way ahead of production. When I ordered mine, I paid and got in line. Don’t be put off by paying and waiting a bit. The combo of performance and price may keep this item back ordered.
I hope the audiophile community will support Alex & John. My highest recommendation
 
Ex-Hovland guys. They certainly have more goodies in the works.

I heard that another popular webzine is about to release a review.

The only industry discount possible is a jump ahead in the queue. LoL

Oh, and in case anyone gets any funny ideas, i dont work for Uptone either! ROTFLMAO
 
Bobolaclune said:
Can I ask whether the Regen is expected to have a positive impact between a DAC like the EMM DAC2X or Bricasti M1 and one of the Aurender streamers like the N10 or the X100L? Or is the device best used between computer-based music files and a DAC?

Thanks
Click to expand...
Pretty much any dac without an I2S connection. John has tried to rid usb of all its inherent problems and he has gotten pretty close.
 
Many leading edge DSD playback does not use i2S protocol...

All USB issues are NOT addressed, as I said above MAC noise is not currently addressed and the ideas on how to do that are not practically affordable for an accessory device at the moment. Only PHY noise is addressed in the Regen. One way to deal with both would be possibly using GMRs inside the Dac…
JS explained all this in some seminal posts at CA months ago.
 
wisnon said:
Many leading edge DSD playback does not use i2S protocol...

All USB issues are NOT addressed, as I said above MAC noise is not currently addressed and the ideas on how to do that are not practically affordable for an accessory device at the moment. Only PHY noise is addressed in the Regen. One way to deal with both would be possibly using GMRs inside the Dac…
JS explained all this in some seminal posts at CA months ago.
Click to expand...

Hmmm.... If your comment was to me, maybe I was not clear. I meant to simply point out that if a usb dac has an I2S input the Regen will not be of value since, as I said, John has only gotten close to eliminating inherent flaws in a usb connection and those flaws do not exist in I2S from the start. AFAIK, the most one could ever hope to get even with a perfect USB soulution would be to approach the performance if I2S. The fact that many dacs don't use I2S yet is another matter altogether.
 
Hmmm,

Perhaps I was not clear. All classic PCM chips DO use i2s, which is only an internal protocol language for Dac chips and only for short length transmissions. The Sonore approach is a modification of the protocol to allow long range transmission.

i would imagine some FPGA implementation my NOT use that protocol and of course innovative DSD approach that eschew Dac chip may not use it as well. Stuff that use dedicated ladder resistors amd LPF, for example.

Many ways to skin a cat out there...
 
wisnon said:
Hmmm,

Perhaps I was not clear. All classic PCM chips DO use i2s, which is only an internal protocol language for Dac chips and only for short length transmissions. The Sonore approach is a modification of the protocol to allow long range transmission.

i would imagine some FPGA implementation my NOT use that protocol and of course innovative DSD approach that eschew Dac chip may not use it as well. Stuff that use dedicated ladder resistors amd LPF, for example.

Many ways to skin a cat out there...
Click to expand...

Norman, my point is simple. Of course all all PCM chips use internal I2S . That has nothing to do with the question asked or my answer. The original question and my answer related to the Regen helping all dacs. You replied "all with usb inputs". I replied unless they have an I2S INPUT which is superior to a usb input even with the Regen because John has NOT eliminated all of the inherent usb problems but has gotten close. My comment was to help the person asking the question understand that if they have an I2S input and a usb input stay with the I2S because it will be superior to the usb even with the Regen.

Further, I2S is NOT "only an internal protocol language for Dac chips and only for short length transmissions". MSB and PS Audio use I2s (and more will soon) and it would be silly to confuse the user of one of these dacs by telling them to use the usb input with the regen if they have the option to feed through the i2s.
 
A review of the UpTone Audio REGEN is now available from AudioStream. It includes a very detailed technical description of exactly what it does as well as subjective reviews of its performance with several different DACs.
 
FlexPaul,
Regen can ONLY be used with USB. It is an optimsied USB hub, so how does i2s come into the discussion. That for me would be what confuses the issue. Similarly, i would say the same if someones said unless the Dac only had SPDIF. Neither is relevant to a USB hub discussion.

i2s is the Dac chip protocol language developed for short range communications. It has been hijacked by developers who expanded the protocol to things like LVDS, etc, because i2s does not suffer from packet noise issue like USB and Ethernet. Strict i2s protocol is only for short term internal communication.

Not so sure about absolute superiority when some USB issues are addressed, but I agree it does start at a higher performance level than stock USB. Yes, there are about 10 Dac models or so compatible with the LVDS protocol (which uses HDMI cabling in the SSR) but again, dedicated DSD architecture and FPGA implementations may need more lines that LVDS (i2s) provides for and wont be compatible, at least not without significant compromise.

Bill, I checked A-Stream for the review this morning and it was not there. I must have just missed the page update.
 
Norman, I presume you are yanking my chain. This isn't that hard. Ask you buddy Adam to explain. He understands it well. The only reason I persist here is to make sure others get it because what you say might be misunderstood. Let me give it one more shot. My comments are below each quote.

wisnon said:
FlexPaul,
Regen can ONLY be used with USB. It is an optimsied USB hub, so how does i2s come into the discussion. That for me would be what confuses the issue. Similarly, i would say the same if someones said unless the Dac only had SPDIF. Neither is relevant to a USB hub discussion.
Click to expand...

First, I thought we were kinda talking about how to get the best sounding connection. If not I am sorry. I2S is in the discussion only because the question was asked whether the regen would help all dacs and you replied all usb dacs. My point was some usb dacs have i2s inputs and that would be superior to a usb input with the regen. It is NOT the same as referencing spidf because spdif is not asynchronous and many (including me) consider the buffering or phase lock loop required to optimize the time domain a bigger flaw than a noisy usb connection. So the theoretical order of performance of connections in my world would be I2s > usb with clean up architecture > usb > spidf. (This assumes each has been executed in a SOTA fashion.)


wisnon said:
i2s is the Dac chip protocol language developed for short range communications. It has been hijacked by developers who expanded the protocol to things like LVDS, etc, because i2s does not suffer from packet noise issue like USB and Ethernet. Strict i2s protocol is only for short term internal communication.
Click to expand...

Your comments are circular but thank you for making my point. I2s was developed for short range but so what. Its applications are long term and you are simply restating the point I raised to begin with regarding to its low noise relative to packet ridden usb. So you acknowledge "i2s protocol is only for short term internal communication" except for the fact it is used for long range external communication. With that, I agree.

wisnon said:
Not so sure about absolute superiority when some USB issues are addressed, but I agree it does start at a higher performance level than stock USB. Yes, there are about 10 Dac models or so compatible with the LVDS protocol (which uses HDMI cabling in the SSR) but again, dedicated DSD architecture and FPGA implementations may need more lines that LVDS (i2s) provides for and wont be compatible, at least not without significant compromise.
Click to expand...

Well if you start with two things that are identical. One gets dirty. The absolute most you could hope for is the dirty one is cleaned up back to the level of the remaining clean one. As a theoretical matter usb could be as good as i2s but even Swenson hasn't got there yet (which goes back too my original comment about John's regen accomplishment). I am quite certain Adam can get you there on this point regarding I2s and usb. A couple final comments: I2s is also Cat VI not just HDMI and the fact that your man Lucasz can't figure out how to get it wired doesn't mean its not in the market.
 
Bobolaclune said:
Can I ask whether the Regen is expected to have a positive impact between a DAC like the EMM DAC2X or Bricasti M1 and one of the Aurender streamers like the N10 or the X100L? Or is the device best used between computer-based music files and a DAC?

Thanks
Click to expand...

Not used it with an Aurender but I briefly tried an Amber Regen (with supplied power supply) with a Melco N1A into a Devialet 200 and to be honest I felt it slightly worse. It was different but not to my ears in a pleasant way. It was a little bit harsher I seem to recall. Would be interesting to try with an uprated power supply though.

[sorry to interrupt the current argument!]
 
F-Paul,

You have an uncanny ability to misinterpret stuff. Its a gift, really. Haha.

You do realize I talk to the Uptone people directly, dont you? You also realize that I am a Greenie . Name rank and serial number is 24. Fellow Greenies understand what I mean. LoL

The poster asked it it would help 2 specific Dacs being fed by stuff like Aurenders (as opposed to PC servers) with USB connections. I said it would/should help all USB devices (system synergies set aside). Mike also answered a bit more pointedly. That should have been sufficient.
I think your response was confusing…at least initially, but as there was some back and forth afterwards, it should be clear for all readers now. No harm no foul in the end, as much new or restated info was shared and some should find that pretty interesting.

No need for the condescending tone at all. I understand this stuff and Adam is by far not the only pal I have in Audio,…you would be surprised…or maybe not.

i2s is neither CAT6 nor HDMI. Fact is that those are cable configs and Mike already explained to people weeks ago what is different between the protocol and the carrier config in the SSR thread. I was active on that thread and on CA, so please understand that I have more than a clue.
Go read what the VAD Dac guy said to Jesus about the SSR which uses HDMI and not CAT6 transmission with relation to HIS version of DSD playback.

No condescension, but I think you have several pieces of the puzzle missing and you dont yet realize it. Your responses are too superficial and like many things in life the devil is in the details which you clearly dont have (at lest in totality). Read between the lines and see that what you are fishing for is old hat for me. I have been trying to get the same stuff aligned from months ago and there are clear stumbling blocks.

Carry on anyway. I will just reach for my popcorn and be entertained. People have to be allowed to learn at their own pace.
 
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