Recommend me a SS pre.....

Jack said:
Before we get off on another one of these tangents where sound quality is equated to MSRP, magazine reviews and ad dollars spent this is what he actually said. "value for the dollar in a passive/active SS pre."
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...sure, and unless the budget is 20K.

So the statement is actually misleading in several ways due to the law of diminishing returns when you go up the price points. On that route, while absolute performance typically increases with price, bang for the buck decreases.

The point is, it is neither meaningful to compare a 2K and 20K pre head-to-head, nor to say the 2K one is better value for money. Following that logic he should buy a pocket radio: makes sound, costs 5 bucks. Beats the W4S value for the dollar anytime.

A meaningful comparison needs to start with a set performance level and follow-up with a review to find out at what price point that performance is attainable.

Does the 2K W4S compete performance wise with even 10K preamps, no it does not. A value for money comparison argumentation only becomes meaningful when the performance level is defined.


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Jack said:
And you have an alternative to offer or just taking a shot?
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Sure. IME Ayre KX-R (non-20) or new Pass XP-22 for under $10k.

What about you? Other than help mislead more on a misleading post.
 
Jack said:
heihei

If you are going to run in Balanced mode to the Berning see if you can get a listen to the hybrid BHK preamp as it might give you a little of both SS and tubes. If you want to run SE then there are other options.
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I have not heard the BHK preamps but thought the power amps sounded great.


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I offered an alternative and did it without taking a shot at Randy which was all you had to do to start with. Have either one of you actually heard or owned the STP-SE to know what it sounds like or how it compares or not "high profile" enough. There are quite a few of us here that have some of whom have owned "high dollar" preamps. And you have already heard an XP-22? I thought Bud just pre-ordered his.
 
Kuoppis

The BHK pre is a really good piece but it can be quirky with SE only amps due to Bascom's design with the volume control. Some people it bothers others it doesn't. Dave Clark and several others have it in their personal systems and they have access to a lot more expensive options than it.
 
Jack, I don’t think anyone wants to take a shot at anyone.

The point is that someone has a relevant and real question, let’s try to support that person by sharing experiences.

In my view, and I might be wrong, that statement could have easily been understood as “the 2K W4S is as good as anything up to 20K”. That statement is misleading and factually false.

Have not heard the new Pass, but have not referred to it either (like Bud’s style though, a pity it does not come in M-Cast pink). Have heard the W4S at dealer/ show conditions, did not impress me much. That does not mean someone else cannot like it.


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Good contenders from the top of my head at roughly 10K (my price range):
- Constellation Inspiration pre
- ARC SP-20
- T+A A3000 HV
- Ayre KX-5 Twenty (I own it, there are better, there are worse)

Based on having heard other Pass preamp models, liking Pass sound in general and owning the INT-60 I would guess the new XP-22 would fit on that list as well. But I have not heard it yet.


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Jack said:
I offered an alternative and did it without taking a shot at Randy which was all you had to do to start with. Have either one of you actually heard or owned the STP-SE to know what it sounds like or how it compares or not "high profile" enough. There are quite a few of us here that have some of whom have owned "high dollar" preamps. And you have already heard an XP-22? I thought Bud just pre-ordered his.
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Well, I'm not the one that claims STP-SE eats up everything under $20k. (In all honesty, I think it's a fine piece. Joe has or had one and has nothing but nice things to say about it). It's the over-the-top claim, which I think is doing more disservice to W4S.

XP-22 recommendation is meant for the OP, not meant to claim as a better alternative to STP-SE. Owning XP-20 for years and having heard XP-12 and XS-pre, from which XP-22 is derived from, I have great confidence in recommending it.
 
I’d love to hear the new Pass preamps. I’m not generally a Pass preamp fan but I respect what they can do.

I do love the STP-SE but not for low level listening. It sounds a little flat but as I recall, in my system anything above 8 on the volume was wonderful and in my typical listening range of 20-30, it’s outstanding.
 
Kuoppis

My point is that we all have our own point of reference. Some based on budget, some based on how much we are willing to spend for that last perceived 1%, and others that think the more you spend it automatically sounds better. That last philosophy is what many of the current "Audio Darlings" sales philosophy is based on. Some will survive and most will not. I like many others don't buy or even audition based on advertising, reviews by people like RH, JV and others or price. We do that based on people who actually audition gear in their systems and give opinions on sound quality not dollars spent like Joe and others. There are reviewers out there that follow that guideline and their opinions I value but not a lot of them. So everyone's opinion matters if it is based on actual hearing or ownership. While their point of reference may be different it is still valuable and it is up to the OP to decide which opinions are valid and fit his point of reference.
 
No one in this thread has said "the more you spend, it automatically sounds better", which probably is also the oldest and most tired audiophile squabble. We are only talking about it now because you've gone there again for whatever the reason.
 
We are going there because that is how you decided to join the thread and decided to keep going. All you had to do was state what you liked and recommended but that would have been simple and not express your opinion about someone else's choice related to cost. We all have our point of reference and you have let us know yours finally so let it go. We have all seen this money vs performance argument many times over in the Magico, Vitus, Solution, Raidho, etc. threads over the last couple of years and it is old. There is a forum based in Ca. owned by a retired doctor where those arguments are welcome.
 
Again, no one has said "the more you spend, it automatically sounds better", sir. It's also no one else's fault if you keep translating everything into it.
 
We've both made our points and neither one of us is going to agree with the other so time to move on. Have a great weekend!
 
Kuoppis said:
Jack, I don’t think anyone wants to take a shot at anyone.

The point is that someone has a relevant and real question, let’s try to support that person by sharing experiences.

In my view, and I might be wrong, that statement could have easily been understood as “the 2K W4S is as good as anything up to 20K”. That statement is misleading and factually false.

Have not heard the new Pass, but have not referred to it either (like Bud’s style though, a pity it does not come in M-Cast pink). Have heard the W4S at dealer/ show conditions, did not impress me much. That does not mean someone else cannot like it.


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kzhtoo said:
No, what was actually said is "value for the dollar in a passive/active SS pre... you would have a very hard time beating the Wyred 4 Sound. Unless of course you are looking at a $20k budget."
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I'll tell you something for free... relax! I have had some of the better pre-amps in my system at times & also some pretty crap ones too. At the mo I have an SPL 2 pre that is absolutely astounding me on it's ability to retrieve depth & overall information that I never believed it would be capable of http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/spl/volume2.html I am comparing this to an evolving system that has really been a rollercoaster but most of the time it has been components that are way too expensive & I tell you this, this preamp does not do a thing wrong!!! It delivers what it has been given, i haven't heard it add yet over 100 hours of listening. So you want to talk about the wfs, seriously why come out all threatened. Listen then judge... this pre has really made me re-think my approach & I know there are many components out there that are totally value for the connoisseur
 
sharkmouth said:
I'll tell you something for free... relax! I have had some of the better pre-amps in my system at times & also some pretty crap ones too. At the mo I have an SPL 2 pre that is absolutely astounding me on it's ability to retrieve depth & overall information that I never believed it would be capable of http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews/spl/volume2.html I am comparing this to an evolving system that has really been a rollercoaster but most of the time it has been components that are way too expensive & I tell you this, this preamp does not do a thing wrong!!! It delivers what it has been given, i haven't heard it add yet over 100 hours of listening. So you want to talk about the wfs, seriously why come out all threatened. Listen then judge... this pre has really made me re-think my approach & I know there are many components out there that are totally value for the connoisseur
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No disagreement here, only thing I was resisting is a blanked statement that the 2K W4S beats everything below 20K.

YMMV, but I think that is not true. That’s all.


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Nothing is perfect. Some really surprise for the price and some don’t. There’s a lot of great gear out there, it’s fun to experiment.
 
Jack said:
Kuoppis

My point is that we all have our own point of reference. Some based on budget, some based on how much we are willing to spend for that last perceived 1%, and others that think the more you spend it automatically sounds better. That last philosophy is what many of the current "Audio Darlings" sales philosophy is based on. Some will survive and most will not. I like many others don't buy or even audition based on advertising, reviews by people like RH, JV and others or price. We do that based on people who actually audition gear in their systems and give opinions on sound quality not dollars spent like Joe and others. There are reviewers out there that follow that guideline and their opinions I value but not a lot of them. So everyone's opinion matters if it is based on actual hearing or ownership. While their point of reference may be different it is still valuable and it is up to the OP to decide which opinions are valid and fit his point of reference.
Click to expand...

Jack, I think we are more aligned here than not. I have stated many times on this forum that JV adding another 50K box into a row of other 50K boxes and saying that the half-a-million system sounds good is really not very good use of ink. There is no linear relationship between price and quality. Especially in hi-end audio there is a lot of overpriced junk and snake-oil out there.

But I think the argument goes both ways: while it would be wrong to say a 2K amp cannot sound better than a more expensive one, in this case I am aware of tens of preamps below the 20K threshold I personally would prefer to the W4S.
 
Wow guys... all I was saying is the W4S pre-amplifier plays way way above it's price point. Please don't read too much into it. The 20k statement was in reference to a few people who have compared it to pre-amps in that price level (including some very well respected professional reviewers). I was not saying there is nothing out there that is also good. I was only saying if you compare it to performance per dollar spent I do feel there may be nothing better in pure sound pre-amplifiers.

It is all personal preference. As Joe stated, in normal listening levels it is a very sweet sounding preamplifier. I would think below 8 on the volume control would be hard to hear any sound at all since the control goes up to 80. Anyway, was not saying there is no other pre's out there, just suggesting to do yourself a favor and consider the Wyred if you are looking for a great sounding pre and do not like to spend money on flashy looks, etc.

I do believe there is a UK dealer... Elite Audio...
 
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