PS Audio P20 vs Denali 6000/S V2?

A few more thoughts on the Denali. Besides the positive changes noted above the instruments are clearly better separated which equates to a more relaxed and musical experience. I have everything (which isn't much) plugged into it, my cd player, preamp and power amp. At the most my system draws about 650 watts which is about 5.5 amps. With the sensitive speakers I am using the amp is probably loafing along at 5 to 10 watts. I mention this as I am using a 15 amp to 20 amp IEC adaptor as I have at least a couple dozen power cords, however none are the 20 amp type. I was going to purchase a 20 amp cord but I really wanted to try the Denali with the current cords I had in the system. Overall I am extremely pleased and the PPP will be demoted to TV duty. Cheers.
 
My owner's manual for my preamp says not to use any power conditioning at all but I have had it plugged into the Denali the whole time. So I unplugged the Ayon from the Denali and plugged it directly into the wall. It's a bit more musical this way and a bit better pace and drive. I should have tried this a while ago but there are so many things that affect the sound it's nuts. When in doubt read ( and understand ) the owner's manual.
 
Hole46 said:
Say a lot of people


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People uneducated on the topic? Agreed.

Nobodies line noise measures perfect without a conditioner. A power conditioner can help achieve a much much lower noise floor. I’ll agree, amps are the wild card. But preamps and sources can absolutely benefit.

Line noise masks itself in the upper registers. It’s easily heard in an A/B comparison.

Without a power conditioner, what does your line noise measure?

Try using something like this, and measure, then connect to a power conditioner and measure at the power conditioner:

Dirty Electricity Meter by Trifield - Model EM100 - EMI Power Line Noise Analyzer - Know Your Electricity @ Home, Office, Shop - Made in USA by Alphalab, Inc. Amazon.com


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For clarification the Ayon has a power conditioning circuit built into the preamp. Not sure whether double conditioning is an issue or having all of my components plugged into the Denali is creating some kind of noise contamination. I believe the Denali is a parallel type conditioner so it is still conditioning the preamp to some degree. This was not meant in any way to slam the Denali as it is a bad ass component. I was just trying to show that usually the manufacturer knows their equipment better than us hobbyists.
 
Does anyone else have equipment that the manufacturer says not to use power conditioning or regeneration? If so, did you try it without it and with it? I did read the manual first but I assumed it had to better with it. Oops.
 
All other things being equal, the PS Audio devices are big audio power amps with lots of parts running at high voltages and currents, whereas the Shunyata devices are passive filters so will be much more reliable over time. It’s not a slam or endorsement, it’s reliability engineering 101.
 
M9TR, appreciate the info but still wondering if other folks have components where the manual says do not use conditioning or regeneration. Cheers
 
stereogeek said:
M9TR, appreciate the info but still wondering if other folks have components where the manual says do not use conditioning or regeneration. Cheers
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Certainly using conditioning or regeneration wont hurt anything. So then its experimenting with your gear to see what sounds best to you.
I do know that regenerators don't have the current output to run big SS power amps, even if they fall within the specs of the regenerator.


There are so many variables with the equipment itself. For example if your gear uses R-Core transformers, it won't be bothered by line noise as much as something that uses a toroidal transformer. Most big SS amps use toroidal transformers - they also need super high current delivery from the mains, so the whole Shunyata DTCD thing makes sense in this case. For a preamp with an R-Core transformer, or a lower power tube amp, not so much.
 
I have both the P20 and just got a Denali 6000 v2, not to replace the P20 but to filter other components which won’t reach the P20.

They do different things. The P20 is overall more versatile, as it produces perfect 120V sine wave power. Almost no one has perfect voltage coming out of the wall, and despite what you may believe, components sound differently if voltage is not perfect (source: Taiko Audio).
A Denali won’t do anything to fix that. Nor will it generate a perfect sine wave, nor lower impedenace.

Michael Fremer prefers the P20 above all other conditioners/regenerators.

Reliability - I have had my P20 for 4 years and it’s been running 24-7 with Zero issues. Nothing. Yes, the older PPP units were unreliable. Not so with the P series. I had a P5 before the P20 for ~6 years, and it was also bullet-proof. Trading in a P series because of fears of breakdown is silly.

The big advantage of the Denali is that it filters components - so a noisy component will not affect another component. PS Audio units don’t do that. So if you plug in a switch mode power supply, for example, it will add noise to your entire system with a P20; but not with a Denali.

You can’t say one is better over the other. Ideally, you would use both (in parallel), because the Denali cleans the power and puts it back into the circuit.
 
I had PS Audio PPP, P3, P5, P10, P15. They all failed. I haven't owned P20 but I know of others who have had issues and ended up selling them. Those in 240V land do seem to have far more issues than 120V. The PS Audio forums are full of defect reports, which is why I'm looking at alternatives.
 
PS Audio forms are certainly not full of issues with the P5/10/15/20. Fake news.
As I mentioned, the previous Gen had issues. Current Gen are rock solid.
You get benefits from the P series that no conditioner will provide.
What is best for you will depend on many factors; but you can’t go wrong with a P series regenerator or a Shunyata conditioner.
The best is a hybrid solution with both devices.
 
Surge said:
PS Audio forms are certainly not full of issues with the P5/10/15/20. Fake news.
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I disagree. As a PS Audio product owner and follower of the community forums for 20 years, including forum community leader status for about 7 years, the forums are full of reports of stuff that doesn't work properly. Many many hundreds, particularly in 240V markets.
 
brodricj said:
I disagree. As a PS Audio product owner and follower of the community forums for 20 years, including forum community leader status for about 7 years, the forums are full of reports of stuff that doesn't work properly. Many many hundreds, particularly in 240V markets.
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Fair enough. I’ve also owned the PPP since ~2004 and then P5 for about a decade, and for the past few years, the P20, and I check the PSA Forum regularly. I did have issues with the PPP, but no issues with the P5 and P20. I haven’t read any forum posts about hardware failures — not saying they don’t exist — it’s just not prevalent. Maybe earlier on they had issues, I didn’t get the P5 when it came out. I waited at least 3 years, if memory serves.

The P series are overall the best product you can get. You get completely regenerated AC, at precisely 120V (or whatever your market requires). Even a few volts difference can affect the sound/picture. You also have a significantly lowered output impedance. The only way plugging into a wall directly is better is if you have a very high quality transformer and dedicated line.

The Achilles heal of the P series is that they don’t filter noise between components that are connected to it. So your ‘wall wart’ or switching power supplies, or just about any power supply in a sub ~$30K component (or even above), is likely to send noise out back to the line.
I suspect this is why some say the Shunyata conditioners can sound better.
 
Surge said:
...I haven’t read any forum posts about hardware failures...
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The guy who bought two P20's and they both arrived DOA was probably unlucky then. Blame it on FedEx despite no damages to the box. Easy. And all the others. The 120V models do seem to be more resilient than the 240V models, I would agree with that. The DirectStream Memory Transport fiasco was the last straw for me. I can put up with 10 dead power plants (every power plant I owned failed) because they get repaired under warranty. And because PS Audio sold to me direct at 50% MSRP, which was the main sweetener why I suffered their junk products for so long. I might just hang tight for the time being, the new Esoteric won't arrive for another two months. I'll reassess my options in September.
 
I bought my P20 and P10 direct from PSA a few years ago. They have worked without issue in two different systems since their arrival.
 
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