PS Audio DirectStream DAC

The BL here is that DSD rules and PCM drools ;)

I've got the SHM SACD version of Eagles Hotel California and the 24Bit 192Khz Re-Release from the set that just came out at HDTracks. {I ripped the SACD to DSD using my "special" PS3}. I use this as a demo to my friends to show just how much better DSD can sound vs PCM (at least via my DCS Debussy). DSD is like you're on the other side of the mastering board -- it's smooth, crisp, snappy when needed and very, very analog-like -- and I'm talking the good analog not the bad -- just the good (I have no hiss or other issues). "Life In The Fast Lane" starts up with that guitar riff and on DSD it's just soooo good. With PCM, the guitar riff is shrill and makes you cringe a bit. I even took that same .dsf (DSD) file converted it to 24/192 via both Saracon and Audiogate to make sure this wasn't a case of a different master, but the result was always the same shrillness to the PCM. I could go on, but that's off topic.

There's a lot of good things here that are being overlooked about this DAC:
1. I'm glad to see designers (specifically PS Audio) of DAC's finally embracing DSD. Even if the Direct Stream DAC isn't king of the hill, it's more than mid-fi that can kick some DSD butt :) And it's approachable (affordable) to those that take this hobby serious enough but don't have $100K setups.
2. Good on you Paul for keeping your DAC current and even offering an upgrade path for your customers.
3. It also shows PS is serious about improvement to what's their standard. From the upgrade path, to the new firmware. Not all companies are doing that.

Sounds like they're keeping up with the Jones' very well.
 
radioactive said:
The BL here is that DSD rules and PCM drools ;)

I've got the SHM SACD version of Eagles Hotel California and the 24Bit 192Khz Re-Release from the set that just came out at HDTracks. {I ripped the SACD to DSD using my "special" PS3}. I use this as a demo to my friends to show just how much better DSD can sound vs PCM (at least via my DCS Debussy). DSD is like you're on the other side of the mastering board -- it's smooth, crisp, snappy when needed and very, very analog-like -- and I'm talking the good analog not the bad -- just the good (I have no hiss or other issues). "Life In The Fast Lane" starts up with that guitar riff and on DSD it's just soooo good. With PCM, the guitar riff is shrill and makes you cringe a bit. I even took that same .dsf (DSD) file converted it to 24/192 via both Saracon and Audiogate to make sure this wasn't a case of a different master, but the result was always the same shrillness to the PCM. I could go on, but that's off topic.

There's a lot of good things here that are being overlooked about this DAC:
1. I'm glad to see designers (specifically PS Audio) of DAC's finally embracing DSD. Even if the Direct Stream DAC isn't king of the hill, it's more than mid-fi that can kick some DSD butt :) And it's approachable (affordable) to those that take this hobby serious enough but don't have $100K setups.
2. Good on you Paul for keeping your DAC current and even offering an upgrade path for your customers.
3. It also shows PS is serious about improvement to what's their standard. From the upgrade path, to the new firmware. Not all companies are doing that.

Sounds like they're keeping up with the Jones' very well.
Click to expand...

That's interesting. I also have the 192 version from HDTracks and on my system it sounds excellent like if you were there. The guitar sounds so natural and smooth. The vocals are just to die for. I guess some systems plays PCM better then others.
 
Audioseduction said:
That's interesting. I also have the 192 version from HDTracks and on my system it sounds excellent like if you were there. The guitar sounds so natural and smooth. The vocals are just to die for. I guess some systems plays PCM better then others.
Click to expand...

I would call it only partially interesting...why? Because you didn't say whether or not you have the DSD version of the same album and have done a comparison. Before buying the HDTracks version, I had already owned the SHM SACD version of Hotel California. I purchased the HDTracks thinking it might be a remaster or perhaps sound better. I listened to it and like it quite a bit. Then I thought, "humm...wonder how this sounds compared to the DSD version you already have?"

If you don't own the SHM SACD version, you owe it to yourself to find a copy and do a comparison yourself. Trust me, you'll be amazed.
 
Jeez....just read this entire thread! Clearly there are pros and cons to both formats but I walk away with the following takeaway: there is yet to be found a DAC that can handle both DSD and PCM formats optimally. It sounds like the multibit (PCM) vs. 1-bit (true-DSD) decoding cannot be done optimally without having perhaps two parallel processing sections (one for each format) in a single DAC. Does such a DAC exist? It seems like we are getting bogged down with another format war in the digital domain here with the DSD vs. PCM camps. I hardly have any SACDs (DSD files) so for me it sounds like I should contemplate PCM-optimized DACs for now given the contents of my music library but it seems quite confusing and overwhelming the vast array of options in digital land these days. I may need to go back to school and get me a Comp Sci degree to get all this stuff.

Anyhoo, congrats to the DS owners out there. Clearly it is doing a lot of things right.
 
Cyril - I would argue that the Lumin S1 handles all formats - including Double DSD with flying colors.


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I apologize if I wasn't clear and my observations were taken too literally. When I said "shrill", etc. one should take into consideration that I'm doing a comparison. So I meant "...it sounded shrill in comparison." for example.

As for my DCS Debussy, I'm still impressed with what I get out of it.

Mike, just curious, if I send you a disk with the DSD version and the 24/192 version of the song I mentioned would you mind giving both a listen and let us know if you can hear a difference between the two? Thinking out loud, I'm not sure that really means anything empirically, other than the Lumin can equally perform on DSD and PCM. I would then submit, how does the DSD performance (or PCM) of the Lumin sound compared with the Debussy. Very interesting.... Thoughts from the gallery?

Bryan


Mike said:
Cyril - I would argue that the Lumin S1 handles all formats - including Double DSD with flying colors.


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Click to expand...
 
radioactive said:
I apologize if I wasn't clear and my observations were taken too literally. When I said "shrill", etc. one should take into consideration that I'm doing a comparison. So I meant "...it sounded shrill in comparison." for example.

As for my DCS Debussy, I'm still impressed with what I get out of it.

Mike, just curious, if I send you a disk with the DSD version and the 24/192 version of the song I mentioned would you mind giving both a listen and let us know if you can hear a difference between the two? Thinking out loud, I'm not sure that really means anything empirically, other than the Lumin can equally perform on DSD and PCM. I would then submit, how does the DSD performance (or PCM) of the Lumin sound compared with the Debussy. Very interesting.... Thoughts from the gallery?

Bryan
Click to expand...

Sure! I have Hotel California from DVD Audio converted to 24/192. I have Hotel California downloaded from HDTracks - 24/192 for the box set released last year. I have Hotel California on Redbook. I have Hotel California on Vinyl - remastered from the original tapes and the box set (taken from digital source files). But no DSD version.

George can maybe even come down and we will do a comparison.

I find the version from the DVD Audio sounds great. The version for the box set (taken from a digital source) is just ok.


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The new one is dsd good and PCM backwards , but I do not like it that much to consider a second one like him . The up and down sampling is just not for me. I did this for about two hours on 4 DACS. The DS , the hugo ,the Ifi micro dsd and lastly the lampi B7. It does not give new life to any of them. The why some like it must be thee choice it's not a magic bullit to make any feel this is it.
also my feeling is most do not know how good dsd sounds anyway so it's a lost cause in most cases anyway. As for the PCM and dsd debate I like both and not anyone better. But dsd is day on the brain and PCM is more agreesive so a old thing for sure.
For me no firmware that ps audio has released the note thickness or there house sound. To me the DS is a little to tubby sounding. It luks upper brightness that some DACS have ndo lacks air because it. And ps audio likes its house sound period. In order of thin to thick is
the hugo , micro , DS and lampi. Only the lampi give me the feel of total real. The DS is nice but has that house sound I just don't like most times .
 
Using the AO digital filters can do what the firmware dies to a point but neither effect the note thickness. It seems that must be done in the DAC as a house sound. Fhe DS is warm side of neutral and my biggest issue with it. If you have had or heard the pwd mkii it's the same sound but cleaner
 
Lastly asking Anyone whats best is ok to a point but take the time to do yourself as the choice is made by your brain not others. No one tells me this is better but I do like to read others view s
 
Ok, Bryan was kind enough to send me the high res PCM and DSD versions of Hotel California to compare. As I expected, it wasn't close. The DSD version was miles better. Now, that being said, I have to wonder if we are discussing the same mix here or not. Could the SHM be a remastered version? It is my understanding (and I could be wrong), that the high res PCM version was taken from a digital copy of the original master tape. The SHM version might be direct from the master tape. Don't know.


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SHM also means that the rip was from a higher quality optical material and so is better than even regular SACD?

I have this album in all formats, but recall that the 24/96 totally trumped the 24/192 I had. I know I have the DSD iso version, and should also have the SHM version.

I am re-upping my system, so should be able to test in a couple weeks.
 
Good question, here's the answer:
The PCM version came from "The hi-res remastering of the entire Eagles box set was done using the original analog master tapes by Bernie Grundman Mastering using a JCF Audio Latte A/D converter." -- At least according to HDTracks. (just go to The Studio Albums 1972-1979 | HDtracks - The World's Greatest-Sounding Music Downloads, and click on the right hand "About This Album")

As for the SHM version, the translation of the Japanese on the outside of the case says: The hi-res remastering of the entire Eagles box set was done using the original analog master tapes by Bernie Grundman Mastering using a JCF Audio Latte A / D converter."

Don't believe me, here's the japanese, just go plug it into Google Translate:

[FONT=&#12498][Warner Premium Sound series ～SACD/CD ハイブリッド仕様～] 20世紀を代表する不滅の最高傑作アルバム。本作よりバーニー・リードンに代わりジョー・ウォルシュが参加。よりパワフルかつ切れ味のよいサウンドがここに完成。SACD/CDハイブリッド盤。5.1chサラウンド&ステレオ音声収録。解説・歌詞・対訳付き。

So they both come from the same source.

(ps. here's a link to the Japanese (SHM) version [/FONT]http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/product/WPCR-14165 )

Bryan
 
radioactive said:
Good question, here's the answer:
The PCM version came from "The hi-res remastering of the entire Eagles box set was done using the original analog master tapes by Bernie Grundman Mastering using a JCF Audio Latte A/D converter." -- At least according to HDTracks. (just go to The Studio Albums 1972-1979 | HDtracks - The World's Greatest-Sounding Music Downloads, and click on the right hand "About This Album")

As for the SHM version, the translation of the Japanese on the outside of the case says: The hi-res remastering of the entire Eagles box set was done using the original analog master tapes by Bernie Grundman Mastering using a JCF Audio Latte A / D converter."

Don't believe me, here's the japanese, just go plug it into Google Translate:

[Warner Premium Sound series ～SACD/CD ハイブリッド仕様～] 20世紀を代表する不滅の最高傑作アルバム。本作よりバーニー・リードンに代わりジョー・ウォルシュが参加。よりパワフルかつ切れ味のよいサウンドがここに完成。SACD/CDハイブリッド盤。5.1chサラウンド&ステレオ音声収録。解説・歌詞・対訳付き。

So they both come from the same source.

(ps. here's a link to the Japanese (SHM) version http://www.cdjapan.co.jp/product/WPCR-14165 )

Bryan
Click to expand...

Since both the hi-rez version and the SHM version are PCM and were supposed to be made from the master tapes by the same engineer, I would expect them to sound more alike than the DSD version would sound compared to either PCM version.
 
The DSD version is the same source as the PCM so, yes you would expect them to sound the same. That doesn't mean that HDTracks didn't "fiddle" with the PCM before the released it (lots of people run super-hirez material through filters prior to converting them to other formats --it's pretty standard at least for DSD native conversions, but this is the opposite so I digress). Funny how the DSD sounds so much better though.
 
radioactive said:
The DSD version is the same source as the PCM so, yes you would expect them to sound the same. That doesn't mean that HDTracks didn't "fiddle" with the PCM before the released it (lots of people run super-hirez material through filters prior to converting them to other formats --it's pretty standard at least for DSD native conversions, but this is the opposite so I digress). Funny how the DSD sounds so much better though.
Click to expand...

When you say the DSD version is the same source as the PCM, I think you mean the master tapes are the source. I do not expect PMC to sound like DSD based on my experience. What I did say was that I would expect the SHM and the hi-rez versions to sound similar because they are both PCM.
 
mep said:
Since both the hi-rez version and the SHM version are PCM and were supposed to be made from the master tapes by the same engineer, I would expect them to sound more alike than the DSD version would sound compared to either PCM version.
Click to expand...

Not nessessarily. At the risk of being skewered and ridiculed as on another board, the material used in the manufacturing of the digital disc can significantly impact the sound of the recording. Probably 20 years ago now, David Chesky gave me four CDs made of either Al or Au or different types of polycarbonate ( I want to say the plastic was called Theonex?) to audition. The CDs all sounded very different so pick your flavor. The reason? Got me but we know that polycarbonate plastics, depending upon how well the polymeric chains are oriented, have signicantly different grades of optical clarity. (Polymeric organization may also have an impact on the sound of caps too, but probably a disorganized state so as emphasize faster discharge.) plus there can be issues with diffraction on reflection of the beam.

Here's some comments by Bob Levi on the SHM discs:

shmcd
 
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