Pre-amp and DAC advice requested

J

jmaher

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Looking to get back into this hobby in a small way. My pre-amp is having issues and it’s time for a new one. If I do that a new DAC might be in order as well or perhaps a piece that integrates the two. Budget is around $4,000 or less for both pieces if that is possible. If necessary I could just replace the pre-amp for now.
Primary consideration is support of Spotify Connect as we listen to that most of the time. I might want to try Roon as well but that is secondary. I used to use JRiver but I would like to get away from needing a computer near the system and I did not set this up when we moved. Spotify could be in the pre-amp or the DAC or an addon if that is the best alternative for both ease of use and sound quality.
I have custom made floor-standers and custom amps using the modules from Hypex. I currently use an Oppo 105D with a Chromecast HDMI device but would like to move into something better for streaming and a DAC.
Audiophile for many years and heavily involved for a good part of that time but have a more relaxed view at this point.
Any and all comments and suggestions welcomed.
Jim
 
jmaher said:
Looking to get back into this hobby in a small way. My pre-amp is having issues and it’s time for a new one. If I do that a new DAC might be in order as well or perhaps a piece that integrates the two. Budget is around $4,000 or less for both pieces if that is possible. If necessary I could just replace the pre-amp for now.
Primary consideration is support of Spotify Connect as we listen to that most of the time. I might want to try Roon as well but that is secondary. I used to use JRiver but I would like to get away from needing a computer near the system and I did not set this up when we moved. Spotify could be in the pre-amp or the DAC or an addon if that is the best alternative for both ease of use and sound quality.
I have custom made floor-standers and custom amps using the modules from Hypex. I currently use an Oppo 105D with a Chromecast HDMI device but would like to move into something better for streaming and a DAC.
Audiophile for many years and heavily involved for a good part of that time but have a more relaxed view at this point.
Any and all comments and suggestions welcomed.
Jim
Click to expand...

Jim-
Check out the T+A Dac8 dsd. It will give you flexibility with DSD and PCM and sounds great. The Preamplifer flexibility with a great volume control is also a big bonus. And, it is spot on for your budget of $4k.
-Brent
 
Jim, take a look at the Schiit Yggdrasil and the new Chord Qutest DAC's. Consider going used for a preamp. You can pick up a used Pass XP-10 or a Parasound JC2 preamp for about $2200-$2500 if you are patient and check www.audiogon.com every few days.

There is a used Yyggdrasil for $1500 and a fabulous T+A for $2800 for sale on Agon. The T+A however, sounds its best at DSD512.

Larry
 
I am going to advise in a different direction being a proponent to having a preamp in the chain. Keep the Oppo 105 which isn't bad in its own right and look for a preamp. There are many new and used options in the $4k range.
 
You may want to look into a Tidal subscription to improve fidelity. Spotify is basically mp3, in my opinion 4k is a good sum for mp3.

Another option would be Bel Canto preamp/DAC
 
The Oppo is a solid DAC and even though I own and love the T+A DAC8 DSD I would personally get the pre-amp situated first. The T+A works great as a pre-amp in an all digital system, but does limit you. There are no analog inputs so if you want to hook up additional devices, such as a tuner or to listen to SACDs from your Oppo you can not. However as a DAC it is fantastic! The best I have ever heard.

I would get a good pre-amp first if it were me. You can get a good used pre... US Audio Mart, The Music Room, Audiogon, etc., or a fine new one... Wyred 4 Sound makes a real fine pre-amp for example. I am not a huge fan of having the DAC built into my pre-amp, however if you prefer it this way there are choices. For example, the McIntosh C47 has a nice DAC built in, and it is a full fledge highly rated pre-amp (check out this months The Absolute Sound cover article on the C52 which also talks about the C47). The C47 is priced new at $4k....
 
Mr Peabody said:
Spotify is basically mp3
Click to expand...
No sir, it is not. While Tidal is claimed lossless, Spotify Premium (which I'm pretty sure Jim uses) is 320 kbps Ogg Vorbis.
Without verified tested hearing ability and extensive codec artifact training, they are extremely difficult to (or impossible) tell apart. If an audiophile wants to look silly, they might try under controlled conditions. I've tested quite a few people myself.

Howdy Jim, you moved?

cheers,

AJ
 
So are you saying a person can't hear the difference between 328 kps and 1,411 kps, or, are you saying Tidal is lieing about being lossless? I'm not sure what "Ogg Vorbis." is. In this day and age I don't think Tidal could get away with claiming lossless, charging for it, and not actually being lossless. Stupid as I may be I am fairly certain I can hear the difference between the same track in 328 vs 1411.

AJ Soundfield said:
No sir, it is not. While Tidal is claimed lossless, Spotify Premium (which I'm pretty sure Jim uses) is 320 kbps Ogg Vorbis.
Without verified tested hearing ability and extensive codec artifact training, they are extremely difficult to (or impossible) tell apart. If an audiophile wants to look silly, they might try under controlled conditions. I've tested quite a few people myself.

Howdy Jim, you moved?

cheers,

AJ
Click to expand...
 
Mr Peabody said:
So are you saying a person can't hear the difference between 328 kps and 1,411 kps, or, are you saying Tidal is lieing about being lossless? I'm not sure what "Ogg Vorbis." is. In this day and age I don't think Tidal could get away with claiming lossless, charging for it, and not actually being lossless. Stupid as I may be I am fairly certain I can hear the difference between the same track in 328 vs 1411.
Click to expand...

He’s gonna offer to put you on YouTube.
 
Mr Peabody said:
So are you saying a person can't hear the difference between 328 kps and 1,411 kps, or, are you saying Tidal is lieing about being lossless? I'm not sure what "Ogg Vorbis." is. In this day and age I don't think Tidal could get away with claiming lossless, charging for it, and not actually being lossless. Stupid as I may be I am fairly certain I can hear the difference between the same track in 328 vs 1411.
Click to expand...
I'm saying Spotify premium is 320 Ogg Vorbis, not MP3 as you stated. Tidal claims to be lossless (1411), but bitrates are variable so can drop below depending on connection. Whether you can or cannot hear 320 Vorbis vs lossless is a testable claim that has been performed many times.
What those tests show is that it is extremely difficult and without real training (not the self assessed variety), next to impossible. Spotify actually did (quietly) a large scale beta test of listeners a while back with lossless.
If kzhtoo wants to be a Youtube star I'd be happy to oblige (but of course, he wouldn't dare) :)
It's not impossible, just far, far more difficult than some folks think, especially when done in a controlled factors situation.
Btw, the person you are suggesting this to, Jim, is aware of Spotify Premium sound quality vs lossless...and chose based on what I have explained above. YMMV

cheers,

AJ
 
jmaher said:
Budget is around $4,000 or less for both pieces if that is possible. If necessary I could just replace the pre-amp for now.
Primary consideration is support of Spotify Connect as we listen to that most of the time.
Click to expand...
Hi Jim,

A Cambridge CXN network player (w Spotify of course) will set you back < $1k
There are a ton of great pre's < $3k. You can use the Cambridges internal DACs, or feed an external DAC with the digital outs. Pretty sure Mike carries PSA, their Stellar DAC/pre would keep you in budget and serve as both a dac and preamp.
Lot of choices in that range, good luck!

cheers,

AJ
 
Why is 328 not mp3? I understood mp3 can vary from 128 to 328 but mp3 nonetheless.

It is easy for me to detect lower res vs lossless. Sometimes the lower res even sounds like some type of.... "remaster" due to the song not sounding the same as I've always heard the original. I use "remaster" as meaning the song has been changed, not improved, I just don't have a better word for now.

I recently have been have fun playing all types of internet radio stations, I admit some of them do sound pretty good but it's still easy to tell they aren't lossless when it comes to dynamics. Not to mention frequency response, especially in the bottom end. If you are familiar with your own system it's hard for me to believe others can't hear these differences, but, that comes from my perspective where I do hear them.


AJ Soundfield said:
I'm saying Spotify premium is 320 Ogg Vorbis, not MP3 as you stated. Tidal claims to be lossless (1411), but bitrates are variable so can drop below depending on connection. Whether you can or cannot hear 320 Vorbis vs lossless is a testable claim that has been performed many times.
What those tests show is that it is extremely difficult and without real training (not the self assessed variety), next to impossible. Spotify actually did (quietly) a large scale beta test of listeners a while back with lossless.
If kzhtoo wants to be a Youtube star I'd be happy to oblige (but of course, he wouldn't dare) :)
It's not impossible, just far, far more difficult than some folks think, especially when done in a controlled factors situation.
Btw, the person you are suggesting this to, Jim, is aware of Spotify Premium sound quality vs lossless...and chose based on what I have explained above. YMMV

cheers,

AJ
Click to expand...
 
Mr Peabody said:
Why is 328 not mp3?
Click to expand...

In the same way there are multiple lossless formats such as WAV FLAC AIFF Apple Lossless, there are multiple lossy formats such as MP3 OGG AAC.

Spotify Premium (lossy) uses OGG instead of MP3.
Tidal Premium (lossy) uses AAC, but in some rare cases MP3 as well.
 
Mr Peabody said:
It is easy for me to detect lower res vs lossless.
Click to expand...
Well, this is the specific case of 320 Ogg Vorbis vs lossless under controlled conditions, not "lossy vs lossless" playing around in general.
If you are ever down this way for an audio event, I'd love for you to demonstrate this and point to me what the differences you're easily hearing are, that so many others with tested/verified non-impaired hearing and specific training for codec artifacts are missing. That sort of information is extremely valuable for developing perceptual models, etc. I (along with an entire field of science) would be very grateful for such help from you.
But once again, this is all a moot point relating to what Jim actually wants, which is equipment to play Spotify etc.
 
FWiW I changed from Spotify to Tidal because I blind tested both with a bunch of people for at least 10 tracks. Tidal won unanimously 9 out of 10 tracks. Maybe the 1 ‘loss’ was interference with the streaming, not sure. Maybe group bias as well - we didn’t do a secret ballot. But I know what I hear and the difference was as obvious to me as going from any of my old equipment to my new equipment.

Having said all that, my Tidal stream in Singapore is very unreliable. It cuts out a lot (and it is not due to my internet connection or router as both are as close to as good as you can get). Am about to try setting my router to a new DNS to see if that helps.
 
AJR said:
FWiW I changed from Spotify to Tidal because I blind tested both with a bunch of people for at least 10 tracks. Tidal won unanimously 9 out of 10 tracks. Maybe the 1 ‘loss’ was interference with the streaming, not sure.
Click to expand...
Interesting. That was Spotify premium at 320? How were levels matched?
 
Spotify premium, yes. Not sure what “levels matched” means. I just streamed the same track thru my Lumin (native) from Spotify and then Tidal (and alternated the order).
 
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