Ponophile

Mike

Mike

Audioshark
Staff member
Joined
Apr 2, 2013
Messages
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Sarasota, FL
At the assurance of the folks at Berkeley that converting DSD files to PCM before hand and not on the fly is sonically superior, I've been searching for a good program to do just that. I tried several including TASCAM, AudioGate (I have an older version that works without the need to buy their hardware), AUL Converter, etc.

So far, Ponophile does everything I want and the price (about $13) is right. So far, it's running stable, handles subdirectories like a champ and seems very intuitive with a nice interface.

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Mike said:
At the assurance of the folks at Berkeley that converting DSD files to PCM before hand and not on the fly is sonically superior,
Click to expand...

The problem here is you can't compare whether the actual DSD file is better, the same, or worse than the PCM version. I still say Berkeley got caught with their pants down when DSD took off right before they released the Reference DAC. It was too late to add the necessary circuitry, so they kludged up a conversion solution, and, obviously, say it is superior. :)
 
BlueFox said:
The problem here is you can't compare whether the actual DSD file is better, the same, or worse than the PCM version. I still say Berkeley got caught with their pants down when DSD took off right before they released the Reference DAC. It was too late to add the necessary circuitry, so they kludged up a conversion solution, and, obviously, say it is superior. :)
Click to expand...

My question is this: don't most (but not all) DAC's on the market convert DSD to PCM anyway?

I was one of the early fanboys of DSD. Those who know me can attest to this. But, I don't know if we are seeing enough new titles for it to thrive. Thoughts?

As far as digital goes, I'm betting on MQA.


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What does Lumin do? Currently I am using the PCM to DSD option. Do they convert PCM to DSD, and then reconvert it to PCM? :)
 
DSD64 is treated natively. I will be interested to see how DSD files converted to PCM fair against their 24/192 PCM counterparts. That shootout I can do.


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BlueFox said:
The problem here is you can't compare whether the actual DSD file is better, the same, or worse than the PCM version. I still say Berkeley got caught with their pants down when DSD took off right before they released the Reference DAC. It was too late to add the necessary circuitry, so they kludged up a conversion solution, and, obviously, say it is superior. :)
Click to expand...

Your statement is ridiculous!

"The Alpha DAC Reference Series embodies everything we know about digital to analog conversion taken to an unprecedented level - a level that requires new design concepts and new components at the edge of what is possible. The result is an immediacy and presence of music reproduction that is simply real.
We literally designed the Reference Series before it was possible to build it. Almost three years in development, the Alpha DAC Reference Series uses components designed to our specifications that previously were not commercially available. Several suppliers were not able to meet our requirements which delayed the release of the Reference Series by more than a year. But those obstacles were overcome and now the Alpha DAC Reference Series is a reality.
The presence and sonic reality of the Reference Series is the result of digital to analog conversion at a new level of accuracy made possible by tremendous electrical and mechanical noise isolation coupled with extreme time domain stability. Ceramic aerospace circuit board materials are used in all critical areas and the enclosure is carefully engineered to minimize electrical noise and maximize mechanical and thermal stability. The Reference Series weighs 30 pounds and the entire enclosure is precision machined from solid billet 6061-T6 aluminum alloy.
A new high output metal IR remote control with direct input source selection is provided with the Reference Series.
Careful consideration was also given to providing the highest possible fidelity reproduction of DSD files by the Alpha DAC Reference Series. 99+% of modern DAC’s, including the Alpha DAC Reference Series, use multi-bit D/A converters because they provide better performance than 1-bit converters - even DAC’s who advertise “native” DSD compatibility. So, at some point, the 1-bit DSD stream must be converted to multi-bit for all of those DAC’s.
We could, like many other manufacturers, convert 1-bit DSD to multi-bit within the Alpha DAC Reference Series and show “DSD” in the front panel display. That would be the easiest approach from a marketing standpoint and would also be very simple and low in cost to implement. But that approach would also mean increasing the amount of processing in the DAC during playback which would degrade audio quality, and audio quality is the reason the Alpha DAC Reference Series exists.
Fortunately, virtually all reproduction of DSD files using external DAC’s is with a computer based music server as the source. If 1-bit DSD to multi-bit conversion is done first in the computer it can be performed with extremely high precision and superior filtering that preserves all of the content of the DSD file. Computer DSD to multi-bit conversion can be at least as good as that performed in a DAC and without adding processing noise near or in the D/A converter chip. Also, conversion of DSD to 176.4 kHz, 24 bit AIFF or WAV files can be done ahead of time resulting in no conversion processing occurring during playback. Another advantage of computer based DSD to PCM conversion is that if higher performance DSD versions such as DSD 4X appear in the future, they can be easily supported with a software upgrade.
For all of these reasons, DSD capability for the Alpha DAC Reference Series is provided by a state of the art software application, JRiver Media Center, that provides either real time conversion of DSD 1X and DSD 2X to 176.4 kHz, 24 bit PCM during playback or, for the best possible audio fidelity, easy conversion to 176.4 kHz, 24 bit AIFF or WAV files prior to playback. The JRiver Media Center software application is included in the price of the Alpha DAC Reference Series and either Windows OS or Mac OS versions are available."

Just like a USB input, if Berkeley want to include DSD, they could have easily included it.

BTW, if the Lumin S1 has an external dual-toroidal(linear PSU), please tell me why do you need to use a "digital power cord" on it?
 
I agree with jap's post above. Given their history, there is no reason to believe Berkeley did not see DSD coming. Even if they didn't somehow as industry insiders, there is nothing in their history to suggest that they would rush to market with a compromised product.
 
jap said:
Your statement is ridiculous!

"The Alpha DAC Reference Series embodies everything we know about digital to analog conversion taken to an unprecedented level - a level that requires new design concepts and new components at the edge of what is possible. The result is an immediacy and presence of music reproduction that is simply real.
We literally designed the Reference Series before it was possible to build it. Almost three years in development, the Alpha DAC Reference Series uses components designed to our specifications that previously were not commercially available. Several suppliers were not able to meet our requirements which delayed the release of the Reference Series by more than a year. But those obstacles were overcome and now the Alpha DAC Reference Series is a reality.
The presence and sonic reality of the Reference Series is the result of digital to analog conversion at a new level of accuracy made possible by tremendous electrical and mechanical noise isolation coupled with extreme time domain stability. Ceramic aerospace circuit board materials are used in all critical areas and the enclosure is carefully engineered to minimize electrical noise and maximize mechanical and thermal stability. The Reference Series weighs 30 pounds and the entire enclosure is precision machined from solid billet 6061-T6 aluminum alloy.
A new high output metal IR remote control with direct input source selection is provided with the Reference Series.
Careful consideration was also given to providing the highest possible fidelity reproduction of DSD files by the Alpha DAC Reference Series. 99+% of modern DAC’s, including the Alpha DAC Reference Series, use multi-bit D/A converters because they provide better performance than 1-bit converters - even DAC’s who advertise “native” DSD compatibility. So, at some point, the 1-bit DSD stream must be converted to multi-bit for all of those DAC’s.
We could, like many other manufacturers, convert 1-bit DSD to multi-bit within the Alpha DAC Reference Series and show “DSD” in the front panel display. That would be the easiest approach from a marketing standpoint and would also be very simple and low in cost to implement. But that approach would also mean increasing the amount of processing in the DAC during playback which would degrade audio quality, and audio quality is the reason the Alpha DAC Reference Series exists.
Fortunately, virtually all reproduction of DSD files using external DAC’s is with a computer based music server as the source. If 1-bit DSD to multi-bit conversion is done first in the computer it can be performed with extremely high precision and superior filtering that preserves all of the content of the DSD file. Computer DSD to multi-bit conversion can be at least as good as that performed in a DAC and without adding processing noise near or in the D/A converter chip. Also, conversion of DSD to 176.4 kHz, 24 bit AIFF or WAV files can be done ahead of time resulting in no conversion processing occurring during playback. Another advantage of computer based DSD to PCM conversion is that if higher performance DSD versions such as DSD 4X appear in the future, they can be easily supported with a software upgrade.
For all of these reasons, DSD capability for the Alpha DAC Reference Series is provided by a state of the art software application, JRiver Media Center, that provides either real time conversion of DSD 1X and DSD 2X to 176.4 kHz, 24 bit PCM during playback or, for the best possible audio fidelity, easy conversion to 176.4 kHz, 24 bit AIFF or WAV files prior to playback. The JRiver Media Center software application is included in the price of the Alpha DAC Reference Series and either Windows OS or Mac OS versions are available."

Just like a USB input, if Berkeley want to include DSD, they could have easily included it.

BTW, if the Lumin S1 has an external dual-toroidal(linear PSU), please tell me why do you need to use a "digital power cord" on it?
Click to expand...

LOL. The only thing ridiculous are your consistent nonsensical posts. The above quote is marketing fluff to cover their omission.
 
Just as a follow up, the logic behind my hypothesis is that five years ago DSD was just a blip in the market, and there was no reason to think it would increase. Since the Reference DAC has been out for at least two years, and they state they worked on it for three years then five years ago was when they started. However, for whatever reason, DSD took off a few years after they started the design, but most likely by then the Reference design was finalized and being readied for release. By then the Alpha DAC was getting old, and their only other product was the USB to SPDIF converter, so it is reasonable to assume they wanted to release the Reference as soon as possible. Unfortunately, by that point the market was calling for DACs to also support DSD. However, it was now too late to redesign the Reference to also support DSD, so they came up with the workaround of using a PC to convert DSD files to PCM.

That's my hypothesis, and I am sticking with it. :)

Of course, if their next DAC also only supports PCM then I might be inclined to believe their marketing material.
 
First a ridiculous comment and now a ridiculous hypothesis.

Here are the facts from Robert Hartley's TAS review of the Berkeley Audio Alpha DAC Reference:

"Some potential purchasers will look at the Reference’s lack of a USB input or its omission of DSD decoding, and consider the unit a non-starter. That would be shortsighted. Both a USB input and integral DSD compatibility were omitted by design, which speaks volumes about the ethos of Berkeley founders Michael Ritter and Michael “Pflash” Pflaumer. Their approach could be summed up as “no sonic compromises.” If including a USB input in the same chassis as the DAC circuitry shaved off even a sliver of sound quality, it was ruled out. If performing DSD-to-PCM conversion brought performance down a notch, the decision was the same. Berkeley Audio, more than any other company I’ve encountered, is engineering and performance driven. A USB input and DSD decoding could easily have been included for marketing purposes, but that approach wouldn’t have accorded with Ritter and Pflaumer’s fundamental values."

http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/berkeley-audio-design-alpha-dac-reference-series/
 
Again, you are clueless. Other than you, nobody is talking about DSD to PCM conversion in the DAC. Work on that reading comprehension, and you might someday make an intelligent post.
 
To my surprise, after normalizing the DSD files for volume, and converting them to PCM ahead of time using Ponophile, I am surprised that, as Berkeley suggests, converting your DSD files to PCM ahead of time, does sound better than "on the fly". Much more natural with vocals, better transients and an overall smoother presentation due to the lack of immediate on the fly processing I presume.

Is the difference huge? No. But it is better to convert DSD to PCM ahead of time when using the Berkeley Alpha Reference DAC.

As to the debate about native DSD vs converting to PCM, etc., I'll leave that to others to decide.
 
The very simple fact, once again:

Integral DSD compatibility (DSD to PCM conversion or native DSD) were omitted by design, from the Berkeley Audio Alpha DAC Reference.

Send an email to Berkeley Audio if you anyone else don't believe this.
 
LOL. This is exactly what I originally said. I then explained that my hypothesis why it was omitted was because when they started the design five years ago DSD was just a tiny blip on the market, and there was no reason to anticipate its sudden increase in popularity. So the design did not include the ability to play DSD. However, after DSD took off, and amazingly increased in popularity, it was too late to go back and redesign it into the DAC without really affecting the ship date. I agree that adding a kludge DSD to PCM in the DAC probably did negatively affect the sound quality. So, in order to meet market expectations of DACs supporting both PCM and DSD they added the workaround of using software on a PC to first convert DSD to PCM, and then play it. The problem with that is not everyone uses a PC as a file server. Simply for that alone they have restricted the market for their DAC.

Of course since they can only make a couple a day then it probably does not matter at this time. :)

Whether PCM, DSD to PCM, PCM to DSD, or just DSD is superior, or the same to each other, who knows.
 
Would you convert a Ferrari to a Honda Civic? Why would you want to convert your digital files to the lowest common denominator so your DAC can play them? Better to have two DACs, one optimized for PCM and the other for DSD. Why have DSD files if you can't hear them as DSD? Some people swear that if you convert PCM to DSD it makes PCM files sound better, but I have never heard the opposite to be said.
 
The other thing that I find strange is no USB input, weather you are playing PCM or DSD with JRiver, for example, how would you get the signal to the DAC in the first place? The computer output is through the USB port. Please don't tell me they want you to use the stereo line out jack.... using the computers sound processing. Am I completely misunderstanding this?
 
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