Please don't give up on the little-guys

MikeCh

MikeCh

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There was a thread here on AS earlier today that appears gone now. It's probably for the better that it has vanished.

However, there were several posts indicating that some users would "never purchase from small audio companies of any kind again". I hope that's not true.

Please don't give up on the little guys in the business or outright dismiss their wares. Sure, it's understandable if a deal has gone south for whatever reason but please consider that those situations are likely in the minority.

Thanks.
 
Ian asked that the thread be deleted. Out of respect for the reputation of that small manufacturer and their attempts to reconcile with Ian, I thought it best.
 
Hi Mike,

Yep, I completely understand why the thread was removed. Thanks for the response.
 
To take the counterpoint here.... People are so concerned about the reputation of the "small manufacturer"?? What about the next customer who may or may not get what he's paying for? Who's looking out for them?? If we can't discuss these issues here, where is the appropriate place?
 
annapolis Raider said:
To take the counterpoint here.... People are so concerned about the reputation of the "small manufacturer"?? What about the next customer who may or may not get what he's paying for? Who's looking out for them?? If we can't discuss these issues here, where is the appropriate place?
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Look, as far as I understand it, it was a "take down that thread and I'll give you your money back" type of situation.

Would you have wanted me to do the same for you if you were in Ian's shoes? If you were in Ian's shoes, I would have done the same for you.

Maybe Ian will donate part of the refund to Audioshark? [emoji6]
 
Once he gets his money back then there is nothing wrong with having a general discussion of these types of issues.
 
I understand completely you granting Ian's request, and I would hope you'd do the same for me. But there is a bigger issue. This is not the first time I've seen a company blackmail a customer into removing bad online press in exchange for service/refund whatever?

It doesn't sit well. But I'll let it go......
 
annapolis Raider said:
I understand completely you granting Ian's request, and I would hope you'd do the same for me. But there is a bigger issue. This is not the first time I've seen a company blackmail a customer into removing bad online press in exchange for service/refund whatever?

It doesn't sit well. But I'll let it go......
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I hear you and believe me, it's not an easy decision.

This is one of this cases where the needs of the one outweighed the needs of the many.
 
BlueFox said:
Once he gets his money back then there is nothing wrong with having a general discussion of these types of issues.
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Absolutely! I'm all for it and trust me, I don't like to see forums used to force a small manufacturers hand, but in this case, as I understand it, Ian was left with no other option.
 
Guys, my point with this thread was not to question the life, resolution or outcome of the other thread....nor, the integrity of the manufacturer. I'm quite certain there are reasons that things went off the rails and that's NONE of my business. I hope and would assume Ian will get resolution soon.

Perhaps Bud is right and its too early to have a general discussion on this topic.
 
Ian has used this forum and WBF to air out his problems with dealers, distributors and manufacturers.

IMO, these forums shouldn't be used to force dealers, distributors or manufacturers to solve his or anyone's problems.
 
mauidan said:
IMO, these forums shouldn't be used to force dealers, distributors or manufacturers to solve his or anyone's problems.
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mauidan.......Why not? The Internet affords people the opportunity to reach a wide audience and to display for all to see the inequities that some companies would rather keep hidden. It wasn't all that long ago that there was no Internet. Manufacturers, distributors, and dealers could shun or ignore customer's issues at will because these problems remained nearly invisible to all others and consequently did not disturb any company reputations. In today's world customers have a powerful voice and with it they can expose unscrupulous people and companies. Manufacturers, distributors, and dealers are not immune to being exposed if they try to screw a customer. They hate not being able to keep a lid on their dirty laundry once the cat is out of the bag. Being exposed on the Internet gets a company's attention quick.

I am not suggesting that anyone use the Internet as a first means of defense. I think we have a responsibility to first contact a dealer or manufacturer with our issues and allow them the opportunity to correct a problem. The good companies usually jump to make things right, keep a customer happy and loyal, and at the same time build a stronger reputation in the industry. On the other hand, when you have exhausted the normal channels for resolving a grievance and continually find dead ends and closed doors, then the inattentive dealer or manufacturer deserves to be exposed. When you have done everything you can as a customer to have a problem taken care of and you are ignored, a dealer or manufacturer deserves what they get. You can be certain a business is aware of the sheer number of people who will become instantly aware of their shenanigans. Dealers and manufacturers will whine like a stuck pig about the unfairness of what is said about their inaction. Some will make demands that negative comments be removed before they will make things right. What is so stupid about that is the issues could have been corrected long before the war of words on the Internet. I am all about customers having the power to pressure companies into behaving and treating their customers like they promised before the sale. Reputations are built one satisfied customer at a time. There's no shortcut. The days of manufacturers and dealers being able to hide with impunity while mistreating customers is over.
 
Dan, its too easy to make false or ignorant accusations and once damaged, it is hard to repair reputation.
There are most often 2 sides to a story and the Internet approach should be an absolute last resort, not a weapon for misuse by charlatans.
 
Norman.......I understand your point and I agree that false accusation can be damaging but that isn't what I was saying. Every complaint is not automatically suspect. It is good that companies are keenly aware there are avenues for publically airing grievances when they fail to resolve an issue that is their responsibility. The Internet can be a powerful tool. We are in agreement that it should not be misused.
 
Regarding 'two sides of a story', what goes on between two people is not always betrayed on-line as absolute fact. You would be surprised how far things get misworded online. Been there.

Me personally, I really don't push my issues with dealers or manufacturers on the internet I address my concerns by phone with a follow up email and if within a week if I receive no correspondence I just take to my attorney and the firm sends a few certified letters and bingo whatever issue I had is usually handled within days. As always keep all correspondences, who you spoke to and time and date everything. I was burned once and now I do not purchase anything from overseas vendors, that is almost impossible to resolve if their is a conflict/damage/missing product(s). I let a US distributor/US dealer handle all ordering.
 
I have multiple reasons to avoid the little guy.

1. A largely one-man company is just a car wreck or heart attack away from being out of business. Despite the best intentions of the builder they may not be able to meet obligations.

It is worse if the builder lacks integrity. I once sent an amplifier and a check for upgrading (see 3 below) to a small builder with a good reputation. Then his mother died and left him a trust fund. He basically screwed all his customers by not honoring his agreements. He tried to keep my amp and my money. I had to contact the state's Attorney General to get a full refund of what I had originally paid for the amp and the upgrade check. Other customers were not so lucky. I read their sad stories online.

2. Poor resale value. Witness my two ads on this forum and others that have gone ignored.

3. The builder is always learning on the clients nickel. Products are never fully developed before the need for cash forces their marketing. Then 6 months later you read how much better their new product is. Of course large companies also do upgrades. My point is larger companies' products are more fully developed before introduction, there are fewer upgrades and longer product cycles.

4. I know someone will cite exceptions and disappointments with larger companies but I feel the chance for repairs is much greater. Parts will be more available. For some big name brands repairs will be available for decades. I have a friend who is a trained electronics technician. He repairs vintage ARC, McIntosh, and other big brands all the time. He can get parts and schematics. Good luck getting Joe Blowe's "Ampacadbra" repaired if Mr. Blowe is dearly departed or out of business.

5. Despite relative performance I doubt some products offer good value due to the reasons I have listed above. Some small builder's products aren't that cheap anymore. As an example, small cable builders see $3-4K price tags from the big guys and feel compelled to start their "Garage-Bilt" brand power cords at $1500.


In fairness, I should add that there are some large companies I also avoid but in those cases the issues are more geographic. Some foreign brands do not have good representation in the US.
 
MikeCh said:
There was a thread here on AS earlier today that appears gone now. It's probably for the better that it has vanished.

However, there were several posts indicating that some users would "never purchase from small audio companies of any kind again". I hope that's not true.

Please don't give up on the little guys in the business or outright dismiss their wares. Sure, it's understandable if a deal has gone south for whatever reason but please consider that those situations are likely in the minority.

Thanks.
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Mike
I am not against the "little guy" getting a chance. I do think that the little guy needs to understand how he should enter and approach the high end market. When walking around audio shows I see these unknowns exhibiting product and pricing them in the same sand box as established manufacturers. They have not yet earned the right to do so. Because "Big Guy A" has priced his statement product in the i.e. $30k region doesn't mean you get to enter and price yours there too. What is your distribution chain? Where is the dealer network? What is your service network? Do I have to send it back to you for service upgrades rather than have my dealer handle it? What is your resale if I don't like it? If you want products that hold their value look at B&W and McIntosh. What is parts availability? I know one boutique speaker manufacturer, who has now passed, that made so many running changes his dealers never knew what part to order.

If you are new to the market you need to earn respect by delivering and exceeding expectations.
 
I think most people would be shocked how small even the larger "high end" companies are. I'm talking less than 10-20-30 employees with one visionary leader.

Which is of course why Fine Sounds has been able to buy numerous brands up which intern has made a more stable company than the smaller ones.
 
Jock.......It is my understanding that from top to bottom McIntosh employs approximately 130 people.

It would be interesting to hear from those who know the employment numbers for Audio Research, Sonus faber, and Wadia.
 
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