Opinions on tubes for my Hattor

Hey Jack, honest I am not sure. I would have to pull them and look. :)

I have a feeling that Arek includes top notch tubes because he tends to use very high level parts. They do sound very good and a huge upgrade to his already amazing preamp. It is hard to compare to other preamps I have had because other pieces are different. I can say that I have never been as thrilled with another pre as I am with this one!
 
The Dutch Phillips conglomerate owned over a half dozen well known tube companies and factories including Mullard, Amperex, Valvo and others. As long as the factories were still operational and for a while afterwards the tubes from those factories retained their original names. After they had been closed for a while the remaining stock was many times re-branded as Phillips and you had to look for the identifying factories codes or characteristics. While a lot of the JAN tubes were made in the US plant some of them were from the EU factories.
 
Ahhh... I feel like such a tube noob... But it is fun. The active stage is really nice. So much air and sound stage. Dynamics are far better. I hooked up the vintage McIntosh the other day and I swear I could see the old girl smiling :D.
 
That's great. A couple of weeks ago I picked up a six weeks old sample of Don Sachs' latest version of his Model 2 preamp that uses the same 64 step Khozma attenuator as your Hattor. Didn't need it but the price was right and I wanted to compare it to my Supratek which is also 6SN7 based. So far so good once I found the right set of input tubes. Even though same tubes different voicing. Can see the similarities between Arek and EJ's volume control. If you want to try a couple of different tubes let me know as there is a vendor on Ebay that fully tests and grades his 12AU7's and though they are not the exotic EU brands they are solid tubes.
 
I will, and thank you Jack. Much appreciated.

Just received an AT 700 series cartridge to mount up on the Technics as an alternative. Always loved Signet/AT cartridges. The Rega is the main but the new Technics is fun and what a motor. Just fun playing around...

If I ever want to try a MC will try a Denon, but as it is now the Technics phono stage is very serviceable with MM cartridges.
 
Randy

I've got more vintage cartridges and NOS styli from that era laying around here than I know what to do with along with TT's including Technics. If we go through with the permanent move to SC next year I've got a pile of that stuff that will have to find new homes.

As to the tubes for the Hattor there is no "best" 12AU7. There is only what works best to your ears in that particular circuit. I've got tubes I loved in one piece of gear that were meh in the next one so it's all trial and error. When I got the Sachs it was equipped by the builder with the "newest all the rage" Psvane tubes which don't do much for me so I went to tubes that sounded great in the Supratek. Well they didn't sound that way in the Sachs circuit so it was trial and error until I found the ones that did. So if you think Arek put the tubes in that he thought sounded best and not the new production stuff then leave it be.
 
Jack said:
That's great. A couple of weeks ago I picked up a six weeks old sample of Don Sachs' latest version of his Model 2 preamp that uses the same 64 step Khozma attenuator as your Hattor. Didn't need it but the price was right and I wanted to compare it to my Supratek which is also 6SN7 based. So far so good once I found the right set of input tubes. Even though same tubes different voicing. Can see the similarities between Arek and EJ's volume control. If you want to try a couple of different tubes let me know as there is a vendor on Ebay that fully tests and grades his 12AU7's and though they are not the exotic EU brands they are solid tubes.
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A saw a bunch of DS pre off-late offered for sale. Not sure what folks are upgrading to as I thought this pre is pretty good. How do you compare it to the Supratek ? I am thinking Supratek DHT or a passive pre.
 
Dev.

I'm only aware of two of them for sale lately. One is an older model with the individual gain controls and the second one that I now have sold twice in six weeks. The original owner downsized to an integrated and the second owner stayed with his Pass preamp at four times the cost. The Sachs is a pretty damn good preamp but you would need to be committed to SE amps only. The Supratek preamps are more flexible in that they are like the BHK fully balanced with SE outputs too. But just like with the BHK if you use a SE amp you will need to lift the ground on the amp. As to the comparison they have different voicing even with the same tube. To my ears the Supratek is more "classic" old school tube sound while the Sachs is a more "modern" tube sound though they are both more "tube sounding" than the hybrid BHK both because they are tube rectified and because of the 6SN7 tube as opposed to the 12AU7. I only personally have three days of listening to the Sachs with the Vision SET 400 and am still trying to find the "right" tube match from the same five NOS finalists I ended up with for the Supratek where the Raytheon VT-231 won. So far I have tried the Sylvania VT-231, the RCA Graphite glass VT-231 and today the Raytheon. Still have to try the Hytron 5692 and the Ken-Rad VT-231. Based on my experience with these five sets of tubes I think the RCA is going to win out in this preamp instead of the Raytheon due to the "voicing" difference. That may also change when I swap amps to the Kinki EX-M7. I have yet to even take the Psvane WE's that ship with the Sachs out of their boxes as I wanted to stick with tubes I was familiar with already. With the Supratek's you still have the adjustable gain of from 0-25db and with this newest version of the Sachs it is fixed at 18db so that may be a factor if your amp is already a fixed choice. If you are looking at the Supratek I personally would stick with the Chardonnay or the Cabernet but that's me plus Mick prefers the 6SN7 preamps and is what he uses in his personal system. For passives I like the Stage 2 STP-SE.
 
Jack said:
Dev.

I'm only aware of two of them for sale lately. One is an older model with the individual gain controls and the second one that I now have sold twice in six weeks. The original owner downsized to an integrated and the second owner stayed with his Pass preamp at four times the cost. The Sachs is a pretty damn good preamp but you would need to be committed to SE amps only. The Supratek preamps are more flexible in that they are like the BHK fully balanced with SE outputs too. But just like with the BHK if you use a SE amp you will need to lift the ground on the amp. As to the comparison they have different voicing even with the same tube. To my ears the Supratek is more "classic" old school tube sound while the Sachs is a more "modern" tube sound though they are both more "tube sounding" than the hybrid BHK both because they are tube rectified and because of the 6SN7 tube as opposed to the 12AU7. I only personally have three days of listening to the Sachs with the Vision SET 400 and am still trying to find the "right" tube match from the same five NOS finalists I ended up with for the Supratek where the Raytheon VT-231 won. So far I have tried the Sylvania VT-231, the RCA Graphite glass VT-231 and today the Raytheon. Still have to try the Hytron 5692 and the Ken-Rad VT-231. Based on my experience with these five sets of tubes I think the RCA is going to win out in this preamp instead of the Raytheon due to the "voicing" difference. That may also change when I swap amps to the Kinki EX-M7. I have yet to even take the Psvane WE's that ship with the Sachs out of their boxes as I wanted to stick with tubes I was familiar with already. With the Supratek's you still have the adjustable gain of from 0-25db and with this newest version of the Sachs it is fixed at 18db so that may be a factor if your amp is already a fixed choice. If you are looking at the Supratek I personally would stick with the Chardonnay or the Cabernet but that's me plus Mick prefers the 6SN7 preamps and is what he uses in his personal system. For passives I like the Stage 2 STP-SE.
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Thanks Jack. I am still trying to decide the Pre for the SIT-3. I forgot, the LTA Microzotl is in my list as well and there is a bunch of folks who pair it with the Pass amp and has been happy. If I get the the Supratek, I want to get the Cabernet Dual but the wait time seems more than 3 months now. For the passive pre, I had the STP-SE (not the stage 2) a while back but that was in a completely different system than what I have now. I have Dave Slagle autofomer on loan and I am smitten by it - the silver wound will be stupidly good. With this Pre, a pair of 300B amp is what I think will make some magic, though the FW is no slouch.
 
Yes I think all of the talk on the other forum has put Mick into serious back log again for orders even if he wasn't having trouble getting parts which he is. I was e-mailing him earlier about something and he seemed like he was pretty stretched out. If you think the Cube's are something you are going to stick with have you thought about something simpler like a Viva integrated? Finale in Canada is another option and Paul knows and has had dealings with them.
 
I have not thought about Viva. Any idea what's the price on it ?

I did talk on Finale for their 2A3 integrated with Hasimoto trans but they don't seem to have a remote option. They are purist and so they won't add a remote, no matter what.

The Tektrons are another option.
 
It appears that Viva prices are a pretty guarded secret so I guess you need to call Mike as he's one of only three dealers in the US. I'm sure there are plenty of options but not an arena I've ever played in
 
Devg said:
Thanks Jack. I am still trying to decide the Pre for the SIT-3. I forgot, the LTA Microzotl is in my list as well and there is a bunch of folks who pair it with the Pass amp and has been happy. If I get the the Supratek, I want to get the Cabernet Dual but the wait time seems more than 3 months now. For the passive pre, I had the STP-SE (not the stage 2) a while back but that was in a completely different system than what I have now. I have Dave Slagle autofomer on loan and I am smitten by it - the silver wound will be stupidly good. With this Pre, a pair of 300B amp is what I think will make some magic, though the FW is no slouch.
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The Stage 2 is a whole other level from the standard model. However the Wyred probably can't be rated as pure passive since it does have a buffer.

The Hattor (subject of this thread) is actually quite a good pure passive preamp. The optional Tube Stage gives you the option of running it in passive mode or active. The passive is great but the active stage just gives it something extra special. Don't let the price fool you, with the active stage it is about the same price as the Stage 2. Both play way above their price range.
 
sorry for taking this thread out of context. Yes, I am very well aware of Hattor and I communicated to Arek couple of years back. I would love to try the Khozmo at some point.
 
Nah.. no worries at all... I was just justifying re-mentioning Hattor :).... Arek seems to be a very good guy and definitely prides himself on using top quality parts!
 
So I did end up ordering a pair of those RCA clear tops. They are cheap enough to give them a try :).

I am fairly certain that the tubes Arek includes are new, not NOS. They sound good but gonna have fun rolling in the RCA.

I will probably leave the top and the tube shields off. Arek said it should not make any difference using it that way.

I tell you though, the Tube Stage really adds a huge amount to the pre-amp.
 
In my view it added a bit more openness and air, but mostly it added more dynamics. The main complaint on passive pre-amps is that while invisible they some times are dry and lack dynamics. While I felt the Hattor in passive mode is very good but when used with certain music may not be as dynamic as I would want. The Tube Stage definitely helps in this regards. It does also add a little of the tube warmth and inviting sound. A little of the tube colorization. Being that it still uses the full passive unit which in turns hands it off to the Active Stage this tubeness is fairly minimal. Also only using two 12au7 tubes it certainly is not a "tube" pre-amplifier. Also, and very importantly the unit can be used either passive or active with a flip of a switch. Some music is better in passive mode, especially if it is not particularly dynamic music, while other in enhanced with the active stage. I hope that I explained it in a manner that is understandable.

Here is how Arek described it: "Sound is more relaxed, pleasure to listen bad recordings, more dynamic with deeper bass.
Im not a jurnalist so hard to describe. In fact it will be an active preamp."

The bottom line is you pretty much hit the nail on the head, "Many wants the preamp to be invisible in the system, while some wants to add more coloration.", although the tube color is much more minimal then other tube or hybrid pre-amps I have heard. Passive mode pretty much makes it invisible.
 
Ok, got it. Thanks for the explanation. I think the notion of passive pre being "dry and lack dynamics" has mostly to do with the source output driving the amp. Not all system benefits from passive pre. I have heard systems where an active pre destroyed the sound, irrespective of the recording. Conversely, an active pre is far more versatile, can sound extremely good and more flexible in an audiophile's ever changing environment :)

One thing that I would like Arek to do is to combine the passive and active stage into a single chassis. It avoids signal passing through those additional connectors and extra pair of interconnects. The more you avoid them, the better.
 
He does offer a SS Active Stage as an option with "The Big" pre, but the Tube is external. The Tube Active Stage costs as much as the top AMRG Trans passive pre itself :). To me the only consideration was the Tube Stage; I had no desire for the solid state Active Stage at all.

But I agree, it would be nice to have them in one unit. I do like that he sends them both in flight cases and he makes sure that the Tube Stage cosmetically matches the pre that you have since he offers many different cosmetic combos.
 
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