On the future of Roon...

Just to add insight to this discussion as they are viable options, many Antipodes servers can be configured (online) to use ROON as the server and Squeeze as the Player software. There can be extenuating circumstances but in general, that config sounds better than using ROON for the server and player functions.

It allows all the meta data richness and library functions of ROON to shine with better SQ.
 
Last night, I connected one of my music server hard drives which has ~1/3 of my total ripped digital music collection on it, directly to one of the USB-A inputs the Lumin U2 streamer I have in for review.

The U2 was connected to my Lumin P1, which was functioning solely as the system preamp, as I really, really like the P1's LEEDH digital volume control. For selecting tracks for playback, I just used the Lumin app on my phone to select content to play. It was very clearly audible that when using the Lumin app, the audio quality was superior to Roon, with better clarity, transparency, inner detail, and with better portrayal of "space", depth, and "vapor trail".

That being said, I still use Roon a lot for listening, as it's easy and convenient, and it's seamless integration with Qobuz makes searching for, finding, and selecting content a breeze. Even though it doesn't have the "absolute sound" quality from the Lumin app, it's still quite good. It's also a seamless way to access the various playlists on Qobuz available for streaming. For example, I've been listening to Magico's playlist lately, and its very good. Very well-curated with a number of engaging and interesting tracks. I've discovered some new artists and recordings this way, so it's all good, in my book.

The operative point, from my perspective, is: using one in no way obviates using the other. Want maximal quality? Use the Lumin app. Want to sit, back, chill, and listen to some nice music that I have ripped to disc or via Qobuz while I study theoretical physics (so...how about that ADS/CFT Conjecture? :P ); just use Roon.

And as Hans says, "Enjoy the music."

Cheers.
 
Bones13 said:
No, I run ROCK OS (Roon Core only on a NUC - very similar to a Nucleus+) as my music server, as a server only, it is only connected to the ethernet. It only runs the Roon system, and I am considering another server software OS that would run the Roon Core, and a UPNP server (most of the more capable NAS devices will do this). I can re-install Windows11 on the NUC and do this, but have been asking if anyone knows an easy to use Linux build that would do this.

UPNP server would allow some of the other control points to access the same music library, and allow streaming across my network. I don't have control of the software on the MSB Renderer Streamer, so I have to work with stuff that will see, and use this as an output device.

I always have to be investigating something, and this is the current endeavor. Saving $ for the Digital Director, so not looking for hardware, hopefully just software trials for now, to run on my fanless NUC10 i5 machine (Akasa case with 2T SSD). If it goes somewhere, good, but I am not unhappy with my current setup. It's a tinkering thing. I gave up building diy amps, so I have been looking into other things. It's not hard to re-install ROCK if things don't change with a more complicated software / controller system. (Lifetime Roon from launch, so it will need to be a solid improvement)

We plan to move cross country at the end of this year, and I am concerned that the yet to be encountered Seattle house may not allow a large system, so trying not to grow too many boxes. Vinyl system/storage might be problematic. Therefore, I am concentrating on the digital segment currently.
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All linux distro's are easy to install, if you know howto install linux files.

One important thing to say: Some people claim that some streamers sound far better then the nucleus. May be true, however... they forgot something to compare: the power supply. Which will make or break sound quality. This week I received one from Asia, a 'good' brand, and like to add it to my shop. But there was a problem: what I use was a special build one, a very expensive power supply. And this new one, it lacked depth, the bass was less, There was something missing. The power supply choice makes alot of difference. It is not that streamers cannot sound better, but using the standard nuc power supply, or an inferior lps is an unfair comparison!

The lps from asia was a misbuy, I don't even want to sell it on the second hand market. An expensive lesson for me :(
 
NewAlkyogre said:
All linux distro's are easy to install, if you know howto install linux files.

One important thing to say: Some people claim that some streamers sound far better then the nucleus. May be true, however... they forgot something to compare: the power supply. Which will make or break sound quality. This week I received one from Asia, a 'good' brand, and like to add it to my shop. But there was a problem: what I use was a special build one, a very expensive power supply. And this new one, it lacked depth, the bass was less, There was something missing. The power supply choice makes alot of difference. It is not that streamers cannot sound better, but using the standard nuc power supply, or an inferior lps is an unfair comparison!

The lps from asia was a misbuy, I don't even want to sell it on the second hand market. An expensive lesson for me :(
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Since you don't want to resell it, you could provide some helpful advice for others considering an LPS by sharing the 'good' brand you're suggesting to avoid. TIA
 
audio.bill said:
Since you don't want to resell it, you could provide some helpful advice for others considering an LPS by sharing the 'good' brand you're suggesting to avoid. TIA
Click to expand...

There is a reason I don't like to give the brand name and post it on the internet, a negative opinion about a certain LPS could be bad for a companies reputation, which is still based on my own listening experience alone (n=1)
If you would like to have a great lps, please start a separate topic so we can discuss the best power supplies on the market, and don't mention the ones that don't meet the quality requirements.
 
I managed repurposing my NUC to Win11 OS and multiple server options today. Time for some wine now!

1) Creating a USB stick to install Windows 11 was the worst part.
a. main failure point was probably a defective USB stick (they do recommend using a fresh one)
b. My attempts at creating the USB on the MAC failed (possibly because of a.)
c. PC laptop + fresh USB worked finally
2) Several work arounds for the PC
a. required a registry hack to allow it to log on without entering password
b. name/password required to be able to use Microsoft Remote Desktop
c. BIOS setting were already set up to restart on power on
d. created a local account, and I'm trying to keep MicroSoft out of it.
3) Roon installed easily and I was able to set the RoonServer to load on power on
4) Audirvana Studio was not hard either, still on trial with this software
5) MinimServer requires Java to be loaded for it to work at all
6) Remotes worked well from the start
a. Roon on Mac and iPad
b. Audirvana on iPad, I will have to run the Audirvana app on the Server with remote desktop
c. JPlayIOS read music from MinimServer with no complaints. (still on trial for another week or so)
- no option for a JPlay computer app - would have to use Kinsky or the like (a negative for this)
7) The library is going to be loading tonight
a. The 2T SSD in the server was setup by Roon, I guess - Win would not read it
8) Qobuz works fine with all 3

Remote Desktop works fairly well on the iPad too. Perhaps useful to sneak a peek at function and tweak settings.

I will let the library populate the SSD, and let the databases run tonight.

Move the NUC back to the closet, and make a playlist to try all 3 options tomorrow is the plan.
 
Wow. That's why I use an Aurender. All that mess is so beyond my skill and patience.

Bones13 said:
I managed repurposing my NUC to Win11 OS and multiple server options today. Time for some wine now!

1) Creating a USB stick to install Windows 11 was the worst part.
a. main failure point was probably a defective USB stick (they do recommend using a fresh one)
b. My attempts at creating the USB on the MAC failed (possibly because of a.)
c. PC laptop + fresh USB worked finally
2) Several work arounds for the PC
a. required a registry hack to allow it to log on without entering password
b. name/password required to be able to use Microsoft Remote Desktop
c. BIOS setting were already set up to restart on power on
d. created a local account, and I'm trying to keep MicroSoft out of it.
3) Roon installed easily and I was able to set the RoonServer to load on power on
4) Audirvana Studio was not hard either, still on trial with this software
5) MinimServer requires Java to be loaded for it to work at all
6) Remotes worked well from the start
a. Roon on Mac and iPad
b. Audirvana on iPad, I will have to run the Audirvana app on the Server with remote desktop
c. JPlayIOS read music from MinimServer with no complaints. (still on trial for another week or so)
- no option for a JPlay computer app - would have to use Kinsky or the like (a negative for this)
7) The library is going to be loading tonight
a. The 2T SSD in the server was setup by Roon, I guess - Win would not read it
8) Qobuz works fine with all 3

Remote Desktop works fairly well on the iPad too. Perhaps useful to sneak a peek at function and tweak settings.

I will let the library populate the SSD, and let the databases run tonight.

Move the NUC back to the closet, and make a playlist to try all 3 options tomorrow is the plan.
Click to expand...
 
I think it’s worth noting that some of us enjoy that part of the hobby. I used to but have gravitated to a Linux based Antipodes which is largely plug and play. Some want to have someone setup their turntable, others spend $100’s on Tools and want to do it themselves. This is no different. Shoot, some people build their amplifiers!

That’s what makes this hobby so fun. There is no ‘one’ way that is best for everyone.
 
Yes, it’s definitely a hobby thing. I’ve hobbied PCs since the dark ages, building and altering systems. There was a time you had to choose an “interrupt” for each card you added to the PC, some played well with others, some did not. And don’t even get started with the early home networking products. And by the way, I’m just a physician without formal IT training. I learned Basic programming in 1975 in high school Algebra/Trigonometry class, and have dabbled since then.

I had a super stable ROCK based NUC setup for Roon, and most likely will end up back there. So far, I spent no $ on this exercise. The JPlayIOS app has a 2 week trial. The Audirvana trial is a good bit longer.

I plan to spend a week comparing sound quality differences (if present in this Ethernet streaming system) and usability.

JplayIOS is looking to be more an UPNP control point, and I’m not sure it does any real work on SQ (fairy dust). Although it seems to work nicer than some of the free ones of this ilk.

I have not used much in the way of SQ alterations in Roon, although I used to upsample every files to DSD 64 for my prior DAC (Bricasti) which sounded better to my ears. I send everything native to the MSB.

I know there is some playing around to do in Audirvāna, which might happen next weekend. JPlayIOS runs out during the week, and I want to exhaust the testing on it first.

The appliance concept, plug and play, is excellent. More and more of the once difficult things to do are now effortless. I’m glad to see it become available, and simple, for more people to enjoy.
 
Darrel said:
Found this today to optimize Roon.

Roon Optimization Guide For Increased Sound Quality | Headphone Reviews and Discussion - Head-Fi.org
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In that case: this manual is wrong. You should adjust the bios settings for audio and use DSP, instead of keeping it off. I use a factor by 2 until 176,4/192 kHz 24 bit max.

About Windows, First the installation, if you have difficulties burning an USB stick, you could also buy a licence from a good shop and you get the installation stick with it.
Second, if Windows drivers would sound superior, it does beat all high end streamers. No streamer builder uses Asio or Wasapi drivers, because they are only available for Windows
Third, Windows uses background processes which affect SQ. To kill these there is a program called Audiophile Optimizer available. However, this one is only limited to Windows 10 pro or Windows server, which will end Microsoft support in a few years. It is weird that a windows 11 pro version is not available yet, rising questions if they are able to do it?
Lastly, a good nuc power supply makes a huge difference.

One other program to consider, 2 months ago I installed Volumio on a nuc, I was quite impressed. In my opinion, it sounded different, hard to say for me which I prefer. Sticked to Roon because of the lifetime subscription.
 
Thanks @newalkyogre! The NUC13i5 that I bought came with Win11pro baked in. I did run Windows for a bit before installing ROCK over it, just so the authentication code would be tagged to my CPU/motherboard.

Cool to see another version of best practice for Roon settings. I suspect that different peoples systems, SQ preferences, and use case for Roon will cause different settings to be “best”.

In my use case, I am working on a server, not a streamer. This NUC lives in a closet, connected to wired Ethernet. There is a streamer module in my DAC (MSB DAC + Renderer V2) that is connected, wired, with an etherRegen, that is fed by an optical link. I will look into upsampling in Roon, as I have done that before, and see if any of the other MSB users prefer it with RendererV2.

Required for my use case are stability, ability to restart itself after power failure (it is plugged into a UPS). I finished remote access for it, and will be configuring nightly sync to a USB drive today before putting it back up in the closet. I also need to map the data drive so I can add music to the data drive.

Assuming that I don’t keep any of the trial versions, I will ininstall Audirvana. I might leave the free level version of MinimServer running for some use later.

Again, that for any input. Always like to learn new ways to approach problems.
 
I started to work with my Roon servers headless. It means that the dac is directly attached to the server. Reason is that the headless version sounded better then a core - endpoint setup, and that is very surprising, because Intel is not a well known brand for audio streamers.

In your case, it wouldn't surprise me the MSB without Roon server sounds best, whatever you install on the server. less is more.
 
Update. I moved the NUC back up to the closet, and everything working fine. Kept tabs on it via Remote Desktop on iPad. I could not tell much, if any, difference in SQ between the three servers. Probably because they all deliver the same files to Ethernet, and the renderer/DAC do the same thing to it.

This morning Remote Desktop not working, Roon, and Audirvana servers offline. Interestingly MinimServer is still running well, so I can use JPlayIOS to play music on DAC, iPad, and a Sonos unit. I did climb up and power cycle the NUC first.

This is why I keep going back to ROCK. I’ll need to retrieve the NUC, and try to debug. But probably going back to ROCK next weekend for a stable server. Not enough difference in sound from the server side to be frustrated all the time trying to keep Win11 working in a remote location. Bring it, and PSU up to my study, break out the keyboard, monitor and mouse. Then put it back in place. Even doing all that monthly would not be tolerated. I guess if the sound was even moderately better, I could move the NUC somewhere more accessible.
 
Bones13 said:
Yes, it’s definitely a hobby thing. I’ve hobbied PCs since the dark ages, building and altering systems. There was a time you had to choose an “interrupt” for each card you added to the PC, some played well with others, some did not. And don’t even get started with the early home networking products. And by the way, I’m just a physician without formal IT training. I learned Basic programming in 1975 in high school Algebra/Trigonometry class, and have dabbled since then.
Click to expand...

I remember those days before Windows 95 version 2; the first OS to introduce USB. Times before were "interesting"; having to set your comm ports, and Config.sys file, and autoexec.bat files to move memory into "high memory", etc.

People do not understand and give proper credit to the changes that Microsoft introduced with Windows 95 and then version 2 when USB was added (and the two cool videos that are on that disk... Weezer Happy Days, and Eddie Brinkel).
 
Bones13 said:
Update. I moved the NUC back up to the closet, and everything working fine. Kept tabs on it via Remote Desktop on iPad. I could not tell much, if any, difference in SQ between the three servers. Probably because they all deliver the same files to Ethernet, and the renderer/DAC do the same thing to it.

This morning Remote Desktop not working, Roon, and Audirvana servers offline. Interestingly MinimServer is still running well, so I can use JPlayIOS to play music on DAC, iPad, and a Sonos unit. I did climb up and power cycle the NUC first.

This is why I keep going back to ROCK. I’ll need to retrieve the NUC, and try to debug. But probably going back to ROCK next weekend for a stable server. Not enough difference in sound from the server side to be frustrated all the time trying to keep Win11 working in a remote location. Bring it, and PSU up to my study, break out the keyboard, monitor and mouse. Then put it back in place. Even doing all that monthly would not be tolerated. I guess if the sound was even moderately better, I could move the NUC somewhere more accessible.
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Your experience is a good example of the problem with home computer-based streaming. Most folks want to just turn the system on and listen to music. They do not want to have to worry about any computer stuff (debuggin, software update, etc.)

Sonos, Apple Music, Spotify work every time. The companies handle the tech stuff and users enjoy the music whenever they want to.
 
I agree on the premise of your post but disagree in that Apple works every time. I helped my buddy work through his setup using his Apple when I stayed with him prior to retirement. It was absolutely terrible... it felt like I was so handcuffed compared to working with a PC. Add to that the much lower sound quality using an Apple, Sonos or Spotify for that matter. After he got a Nucleus and a couple Lumin to handle his multiple zones we got him setup very quickly. And it sounded so much better than it did when he was using his Apple in the sound chain. I set him up to be able to use his Mac to add music to his Nucleus. We also setup his Qobuz in his Roon and playing it through the multiple zones Lumins. All worked great. Much easier than trying to get his Apple to behave for sure.
 
Randy Myers said:
I agree on the premise of your post but disagree in that Apple works every time. I helped my buddy work through his setup using his Apple when I stayed with him prior to retirement. It was absolutely terrible... it felt like I was so handcuffed compared to working with a PC. Add to that the much lower sound quality using an Apple, Sonos or Spotify for that matter. After he got a Nucleus and a couple Lumin to handle his multiple zones we got him setup very quickly. And it sounded so much better than it did when he was using his Apple in the sound chain. I set him up to be able to use his Mac to add music to his Nucleus. We also setup his Qobuz in his Roon and playing it through the multiple zones Lumins. All worked great. Much easier than trying to get his Apple to behave for sure.
Click to expand...

Hi Randy, I realize that you are not an Apple fan. That's ok.

I have been experimenting with Apple, Sonos, and Spotify lately. Here is what I found:

  • Apple Music Classical: This product/app is separate from the typical Apple Music app. I connected my iPad (via wire) to my T+A DAC. I can listen to high resolution (192KHz/24-bit). Apple has Spatial Audio tracks that I cannot truly judge via my 2-channel set-up. I expect that Spatial Audio will continue to grow. One problem is that I had to keep my iPad tethered to my DAC. This is a no-go for me. BTW, Apple Classical Music is better than Roon for managing classical music.
  • Sonos: Sonos works with both Qobuz and Spotify. The Sonos Port has digital outputs that I can use to feed any DAC and listen through any good audio set up. Listening to Sonos in CD-quality source (Qobuz) with your main DAC and speakers will change the way you think of Sonos.
  • Spotify: Yes, Spotify is not high definition. But, the ease of use, folks familiarity with the app, and the amount of music available far surpasses other services. I stream Spotify to my regular speakers and I am very happy with the sound. What I am missing is the ability to add DSP (room correction). If I could run Spotify with DSP, it would be much closer to my Roon/Qobuz set up. Moreover, if I could listen to Spotify with Roon, I would likely give up Qobuz.
 
nicoff said:
For every Aurender user that claims that the Conductor App sounds better than Roon, there are MANY others that prefer Roon for the combination of sound, friendlier GUI, and unsurpassed capability for music library management.

Aurender once claimed that they did not work with Roon because Conductor sounded better and they were unwilling to degrade the sound. The reality is that Aurender products at that time were using AMD chips that were not powerful enough to work with Roon.

Aurender has now upgraded their products with more powerful Intel chips and, voila, Aurender now touts that their products are Roon-Ready.

How times change.
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Still confused how one can definitely say that Conductor sounds better than Roon when a true A/B comparison is actually impossible. If Conductor and Roon were run on the SAME computer and you could A/B switch between them, then yes, you could make a sound quality comparison. But since Roon cannot historically work on an Aurender server, then one is actually comparing two different servers/computers using two different software's...not to mention the additional power cables, USB cables, etc. Too many variables.

Maybe it is the Aurender server that actually sounds better, regardless of the Conductor software?

Looking forward to when I can use my N200 to play the same file with both Conductor and Roon to see for myself.
 
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