New Magico speakers arriving 04/2015!

[Vapor1]

It seems most speaker designers do not agree with you, as wave guides are not commonly used.

I agree with him completely, and btw Face is a fairly accomplished designer himself.

The reality is most don't use waveguides because of cost and complexity involved with manufacturing. There is NO doubt that putting a dome tweeter in a waveguide results in obvious benefits, and there's a laundry list of them. But there are also pitfalls, it's not just a simple plug and play. Different guide profiles have to be tested with the tweeter being used in order to find a combination that gives gain where it's wanted, and the directivity pattern desired, all while not adding energy storage.

From our use of waveguides the primary benefits are much lowered distortion levels at the bottom end of the tweeters pass band, right where they need it most. And also the tweeter offset can be used to time align drivers, and if you have a well behaved midrange, can result in suitability for shallower slope crossover networks.

Yes, the capabilities and intrinsic 'sound' of the tweeter is more important than if it's in a waveguide or not, but waveguides are a powerful tool in the designers kit.

 

[Vapor1]

I think that is pretty much true Mark with the possible exception of Magicos. At least that's what I understand is Alon's intent. Hmmmm....???

I'm sure Magico cabinets have resonances, likely very nasty ones in fact. But their approach is to make them so massive that the drivers inside simply aren't able to produce enough energy as to excite them. That approach works. From a pure materials perspective however there are much better choices than aluminum which stores energy like crazy. The decision however isn't just always about what's best, but what can be worked with and finished in the manner desired. IMO phenolics are a better choice than aluminum. They and other thermoplastics can result in higher tensile strength and Young's modulus than aluminum, but also have excellent damping characteristics. But there are a lot more machinists comfortable working with aluminum than phenolics, and phenolics would undoubtedly result in much added steps/labor to achieve the desired finish. Phenolics are also much more expensive than aluminum.

 

[JDLaudio]

I'm sure Magico cabinets have resonances, likely very nasty ones in fact. But their approach is to make them so massive that the drivers inside simply aren't able to produce enough energy as to excite them. That approach works. From a pure materials perspective however there are much better choices than aluminum which stores energy like crazy. The decision however isn't just always about what's best, but what can be worked with and finished in the manner desired. IMO phenolics are a better choice than aluminum. They and other thermoplastics can result in higher tensile strength and Young's modulus than aluminum, but also have excellent damping characteristics. But there are a lot more machinists comfortable working with aluminum than phenolics, and phenolics would undoubtedly result in much added steps/labor to achieve the desired finish. Phenolics are also much more expensive than aluminum.

+1 on the phenolics. Machining can be a bit more intense on phenolics though. I prefer the launch characteristics of a massive aluminum baffle that is properly designed. I too like the qualities that a wave guide can offer......but there is a lot of work to a proper design.

 

[Myles B. Astor]

I'm sure Magico cabinets have resonances, likely very nasty ones in fact. But their approach is to make them so massive that the drivers inside simply aren't able to produce enough energy as to excite them. That approach works. From a pure materials perspective however there are much better choices than aluminum which stores energy like crazy. The decision however isn't just always about what's best, but what can be worked with and finished in the manner desired. IMO phenolics are a better choice than aluminum. They and other thermoplastics can result in higher tensile strength and Young's modulus than aluminum, but also have excellent damping characteristics. But there are a lot more machinists comfortable working with aluminum than phenolics, and phenolics would undoubtedly result in much added steps/labor to achieve the desired finish. Phenolics are also much more expensive than aluminum.

Deleted.

 

[Bodhi]

But as a lot of our members have heard, the Salon tweeter is most likely the best beryllium tweeter ever produced.

Mark, doubtless the Revel tweeter is a fine tweeter and makes good use of wave guide technology. Magico too have been advancing the art, and i'm sure would have been well aware of Revel's excellent beryllium dome. Interestingly the fruit of their cost-no-object M Project was the MBD-28 tweeter which eshews a wave guide. Here is Alon's comments from TAS...

"The two-year development project produced a tweeter with a completely revised motor structure that features extremely close mechanical tolerances, and an acoustically optimized back-chamber. The beryllium dome is now 28mm (up from 26mm in its predecessor), has a slightly different shape, and is coated with a layer of diamond just five microns thick. The diamond coating, which is vapor-deposited on the beryllium, greatly increases the dome's stiffness without adding much mass. The tweeter's greater power handling also allows it to be crossed over to the midrange at a lower frequency for a smoother transition in radiation pattern at the top of the midrange driver's frequency range and the bottom of the tweeter's range."

From Floyd's feedback, this tweeter is a breakthrough for Magico and just sounds like music (ie: it doesn't sound like the music is coming from a driver as such). That is ultimately what every speaker manufacturer is aiming for, but perhaps only two or three have been able to achieve. Bravo to Alon and Magico!

 

[Bodhi]

I could be mistaken, but I thought I read that Dan's new company no longer uses multi-layer boards. He is back to using through-hole technology boards. So, no more surface mount parts. I believe the reason given for going back to through-hole technology was that it sounds better.

Mep, I asked Hans Ole about SMT boards vs old school through-hole boards. His response was quite interesting and compelling...

"SMT is much more expensive - especially initially - as you are forced to use very expensive machines to do the manufactoring of the board - for AVM-TEC who makes all our boards - he invested on the "wrong" side of 400.000€. No company in real highend audio have such machines! Most will use an EMS which will very fast become a nightmare - for many reasons. Through hole is really cheap - as it can be handsoldered - with poor results on many levels - again for many reasons - hence we invested heavily on a machine for that too - and again something no other highend audio company has - in fact - this machine is the only one of its kind in Denmark. Machines also takes away the human error factor - which makes repeatability almost 100% - that can't be said for handsoldering. Then there is the "sound" side of things - dont even get me started on why SMT is ALOT better than any leaded technology. In the end who really cares - as long as it works. Overall quality/repeatability/reliability/lifetime ect is the big difference here."

Btw, here is a photo of VA's new, incredibly expensive Ersa soldering machine installed in thier new factory in Denmark ..

 

[MDP]

Mark, doubtless the Revel tweeter is a fine tweeter and makes good use of wave guide technology. Magico too have been advancing the art, and i'm sure would have been well aware of Revel's excellent beryllium dome. However the fruit of their cost-no-object M Project was the MBD-28 tweeter which eshews a wave guide. Here is Alon's comments from TAS...

"The two-year development project produced a tweeter with a completely revised motor structure that features extremely close mechanical tolerances, and an acoustically optimized back-chamber. The beryllium dome is now 28mm (up from 26mm in its predecessor), has a slightly different shape, and is coated with a layer of diamond just five microns thick. The diamond coating, which is vapor-deposited on the beryllium, greatly increases the dome's stiffness without adding much mass. The tweeter's greater power handling also allows it to be crossed over to the midrange at a lower frequency for a smoother transition in radiation pattern at the top of the midrange driver's frequency range and the bottom of the tweeter's range."

From Floyd's feedback, this tweeter is a breakthrough for Magico and just sounds like music (ie: it doesn't sound like the music is coming from a driver as such). That is ultimately what every speaker manufacturer is aiming for, but perhaps only two or three have been able to achieve. Bravo to Alon and Magico!

David, who manufactures their tweeter, Scanspeak ?

 

[Bodhi]

David, who manufactures their tweeter, Scanspeak ?

Mark, my understanding is Magico designed and manufacture all components for the MBD-28 tweeter in-house with the exception of the diamond-coated beryllium diaphragm (which I understand was designed and manufactured by Scanspeak in partnership with Magico). The S7's MB-30 tweeter conversely was designed by Scanspeak in partnership with Magico, but outsourced to Scanspeak for assembly.

 

[FlexibleAudio]

Mark, doubtless the Revel tweeter is a fine tweeter and makes good use of wave guide technology. Magico too have been advancing the art, and i'm sure would have been well aware of Revel's excellent beryllium dome. However the fruit of their cost-no-object M Project was the MBD-28 tweeter which eshews a wave guide. Here is Alon's comments from TAS...

"The two-year development project produced a tweeter with a completely revised motor structure that features extremely close mechanical tolerances, and an acoustically optimized back-chamber. The beryllium dome is now 28mm (up from 26mm in its predecessor), has a slightly different shape, and is coated with a layer of diamond just five microns thick. The diamond coating, which is vapor-deposited on the beryllium, greatly increases the dome's stiffness without adding much mass. The tweeter's greater power handling also allows it to be crossed over to the midrange at a lower frequency for a smoother transition in radiation pattern at the top of the midrange driver's frequency range and the bottom of the tweeter's range."

From Floyd's feedback, this tweeter is a breakthrough for Magico and just sounds like music (ie: it doesn't sound like the music is coming from a driver as such). That is ultimately what every speaker manufacturer is aiming for, but perhaps only two or three have been able to achieve. Bravo to Alon and Magico!

I wonder if the Magico's at AXPONA were properly worn in. As many here know the vapor diamond on Raidho D's takes a long time to sound best. At the nano level, I have no idea how similar the science is between the two vaporization protocols but that may explain some of the reaction noted by attendees??????

 

[Bodhi]

Magico is not the only company doing serious research and development, but considering that they are only ten years old, their design and manufacturing efforts to date are pretty incredible. Just look at Jeff Fritze' factory tour photographs. They have an incredible production facility.

Peter, agreed. Here is a photo of the inside of an S5 cabinet complete with crossover and damping material installed. Their use of finite element analysis modelling tools and curved cabinets minimize standing waves and internal resonances, enabling a minimal amount of damping to be used.

 

[BruceLet]

I wonder if the Magico's at AXPONA were properly worn in. As many here know the vapor diamond on Raidho D's takes a long time to sound best. At the nano level, I have no idea how similar the science is between the two vaporization protocols but that may explain some of the reaction noted by attendees??????

If that is the case…..Why would a manufacturer, with unlimited resources, display a speaker that is not properly worn in? It makes no sense, and leaves them open to any negative reaction that they get. IMO, an explanation is an excuse, until they prove otherwise.

 

[KeithR]

that looks like a highly damped S5 cabinet to my eyes.

what's interesting is YG doesn't damp at all inside.

 

[Odyssey]

If that is the case…..Why would a manufacturer, with unlimited resources, display a speaker that is not properly worn in? It makes no sense, and leaves them open to any negative reaction that they get. IMO, an explanation is an excuse, until they prove otherwise.

+1

Why wouldn't a speaker manufacturer or any other audio organization display a product that stills needs to be broken in? It seems to me that in a show setting they would want to put the best foot forward. :doubtful:

 

[Mike]

that looks like a highly damped S5 cabinet to my eyes.

what's interesting is YG doesn't damp at all inside.

Interesting. I really like YG's when I've heard them. They seem to always perform well - even in hostile conditions like trade shows.

I would like to know the philosophical reasons between the two manufacturers and why one chooses heavy damping and the other doesn't, yet both are sealed cabinet designs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[the professor]

Common sense says you are 100% right. And I'm not trying to make excuses for them . . . .

But the closer I know various manufacturers the more you realize that they sometimes are so into getting product out of the door to customers before a show, since in many cases they are slowed down for an entire week for a show, that the manufacturer leaves their product going to the show to a last minute rush. Or shipping delays for overseas products or parts. It's a real nightmare logistically for them. and Murphy's Law is very prevalent during a show.

+1

Why wouldn't a speaker manufacturer or any other audio organization display a product that stills needs to be broken in? It seems to me that in a show setting they would want to put the best foot forward. :doubtful:

 

[a.wayne]

Interesting. I really like YG's when I've heard them. They seem to always perform well - even in hostile conditions like trade shows.

I would like to know the philosophical reasons between the two manufacturers and why one chooses heavy damping and the other doesn't, yet both are sealed cabinet designs.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hi Mike,

The dampening is not because it's sealed or not, cabinet net volume and driver operating range is of two reasons to do so, cabinet reflections are emitted back thru the drivers , this increases as Db increases and lead to coloration's and smearing. Smaller drivers do this less than large ones.


Designer choices for voicing also plays here.

 

[a.wayne]

Common sense says you are 100% right. And I'm not trying to make excuses for them . . . .

But the closer I know various manufacturers the more you realize that they sometimes are so into getting product out of the door to customers before a show, since in many cases they are slowed down for an entire week for a show, that the manufacturer leaves their product going to the show to a last minute rush. Or shipping delays for overseas products or parts. It's a real nightmare logistically for them. and Murphy's Law is very prevalent during a show.

Typically show systems anre prepared months before the event, a different "team" maybe assigned just for this, it's pretty poor preparations not to do so, on such a large stage ...


Regards..

 

[a.wayne]

Let me get right on that.

I never said it was the most important.


First off, that tweeter is 10+ years old and is still available.

Plus, you must have missed these:

ScanSpeak D2908/714000
Seas Diamond T29D001
SEAS T29B001
SEAS 27TBCD/GB-DXT
Tymphany H25TG05-04, H25TG05-08, H26TG06-06, BC25SC08-04, BC25SC06-04
And the awfully familiar Morel CAT378.

The first three have been introduced within the last 1-3 years and some of the Tymphany models are only a couple of months old.

Directivity is right up there with implementation(crossover point/slope), frequency response, and distortion.

Hello Face,

Seeing that Waveguides are used on most drivers,(free hanging being the exception) then the front baffle design is also part of the process, that tweeter face plate (pic) is a waveguide. Horns are different from waveguides, in wave guides there is no "throat" and hence throat pressure (compression) and then expansion as in a true Horn..


Regards

 

[a.wayne]

I'm sure Magico cabinets have resonances, likely very nasty ones in fact. But their approach is to make them so massive that the drivers inside simply aren't able to produce enough energy as to excite them. That approach works. From a pure materials perspective however there are much better choices than aluminum which stores energy like crazy. The decision however isn't just always about what's best, but what can be worked with and finished in the manner desired. IMO phenolics are a better choice than aluminum. They and other thermoplastics can result in higher tensile strength and Young's modulus than aluminum, but also have excellent damping characteristics. But there are a lot more machinists comfortable working with aluminum than phenolics, and phenolics would undoubtedly result in much added steps/labor to achieve the desired finish. Phenolics are also much more expensive than aluminum.

Which is easier to machine...? tearing up bits can change one's design pretty quickly, agree with you on the alloy comments....

 

[Mike]

The dampening is not because it's sealed or not, cabinet net volume and driver operating range is of two reasons to do so, cabinet reflections are emitted back thru the drivers , this increases as Db increases and lead to coloration's and smearing. Smaller drivers do this less than large ones.


Designer choices for voicing also plays here.

So more dampening is better?