New Magico speakers arriving 04/2015!

mep said:
I thought it was pretty clear what Myles said. If you walk into a hotel room at an audio show and the room/system sounds terrible, where do you start assigning blame? Do you say that everything in the system has issues? Do you single out a piece or two and blame them? How would you possibly know the source(s) of bad sound?
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Err, Yes,

I think if i sat in front of a 100k + speaker with 200K worth of electronics, setup by professionals, at an Audio Show and it sounded bad, yes, i could pretty much access where the issues are, especially since i have 40-50 other rooms for a reference on the same day.


There is no excuse for bad show sound, it's never perfect, but it should never be bad, if it is and you or Myles cannot say so , then that is something else. Now and i have seen this, where individuals lurk to see negatives, this is not where we are going, I think, In Mike's case , he said he went back on 3 different occasions and sat thru I'm imagining a few recordings from different locations, Now it shouldn't be perfect, but it should be as good as what others are getting or close to it ....

Then again it's Audio, not everyone is going to like or have the same preference , that's why there is no Best of Best ...


Regards
 
cmalak said:
Myles...I agree as well but for me that just puts into question the value of going to a show as a means of really evaluating products. I guess it serves a role of demoing for those who don't have local dealers, I get that, but it seems quite futile.
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Good question!

One thing and I know the folks at Axpona feel very strongly about this, is getting the word out to non-audiophiles. For instance, at the Audiophile 101 seminar on Friday afternoon, the moderator asked how many of the people in the room were attending the show for the first time? Half the hands went up.

It is Axpona's intention to grow this show (each year has gotten bigger and better) with the help of the JD group and eventually get 10K attending the show. They are probably a little over half way toward that goal.
 
Myles B. Astor said:
You are kidding right? Nothing else affects the sound of a speaker but the speaker at the show. Not the electricity, not the floor, not the equipment, not the Sheetrock walls, not the room size, not the number of people in the room, etc?
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These variables are the same for all other speakers (including the ones that sound good/great). I agree that electronics are different for other speakers but does that mean that Magico is always diplayed with the wrong electronics at shows?
 
apdoc2004 said:
These variables are the same for all other speakers (including the ones that sound good/great). I agree that electronics are different for other speakers but does that mean that Magico is always diplayed with the wrong electronics at shows?
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For whatever reason, in all the demos I've attended Magicos were driven by Spectral or Soulution. I just don't like the sound of those amps, and in fact - I have never liked any speaker driven by those amps. So no matter if that was Magico + Spectral (or Soulution), Wilson + Spectral or Focal + Spectral, the effect was always the same to my ears.
 
cmalak said:
What Myles means is, if a piece of gear and let's stick with speakers for a second, sound good at a show, you know they are capable of producing good sound and as long as there isn't a major mismatch in terms of your room and the speakers or your amps and the speaker, one should be able to get similar performance in your space with perhaps some tweaking of gear, cabling, etc...If a speaker sounds bad in a show demo, there are so many other variables that could explain that bad performance (a mismatch with gear, poor room acoustics, ambient noise from other show goers and other rooms, spurious noise being generated in the electrical grid, etc...) that you cannot really conclude that the speaker itself is bad. You should assume that the demoers at the very least do have the right gear matched to the speakers for example (if they know what they're doing) but even that could be an issue.

You can make the same argument for any piece of gear, which is why I find the value of going to a show at best negligible. You will be demoing gear in a system you are unfamiliar with and typically with music that you are not familiar with and in an environment that could be contributing all kinds of issues to the performance of the gear you are trying to evaluate. Best to demo at home but that is usually quite hard to do, so second best is to demo at local dealer where most experienced audiophiles know their local dealer's show room and can often ask for demo gear to be placed in a system with gear you are also familiar with and where you can bring your own music as well to evaluate gear more effectively.
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Hi CMalak,

I'm quite aware of the pitfalls at shows, These Systems , Magico in particular are not being setup by Newbies, SO unlike some or most, I do not expect to hear bad sound , i dont expect perfection, but i do not expect to walk across the hall to a much lesser system and have the Q7 sound Bad..!

What should the excuse be, the electricity, Humidity, cables, amplifier mis-match, there is absolutely no excuse for not knowing the combination would not work, I guess too much Hubris, they under estimated the competition...



Regards
 
apdoc2004 said:
These variables are the same for all other speakers (including the ones that sound good/great). I agree that electronics are different for other speakers but does that mean that Magico is always diplayed with the wrong electronics at shows?
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Yes, that is the current flow ......... :)
 
a.wayne said:
Hi CMalak,

I'm quite aware of the pitfalls at shows, These Systems , Magico in particular are not being setup by Newbies, SO unlike some or most, I do not expect to hear bad sound , i dont expect perfection, but i do not expect to walk across the hall to a much lesser system and have the Q7 sound Bad..!

What should the excuse be, the electricity, Humidity, cables, amplifier mis-match, there is absolutely no excuse for not knowing the combination would not work, I guess too much Hubris, they under estimated the competition...



Regards
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a.wayne...I think what you are underestimating is how little time exhibitors have in doing there setups in unfamiliar environments (meaning even if a show happens at same hotel, from year-to-year, an exhibitor will be placed in a different room or venue) and that always presents challenges even to the most experienced set-up pros. I get what you are saying but I just think the reality is these folks often get there night before a show starts and have often less than 12 hours to do an entire system set-up, speaker placement, figuring out room acoustics and treatments (if they have any to begin with), etc...and it ends up being practically a much harder proposition than you might think. But I hear you as well.
 
a.wayne said:
Hi CMalak,

I'm quite aware of the pitfalls at shows, These Systems , Magico in particular are not being setup by Newbies, SO unlike some or most, I do not expect to hear bad sound , i dont expect perfection, but i do not expect to walk across the hall to a much lesser system and have the Q7 sound Bad..!

What should the excuse be, the electricity, Humidity, cables, amplifier mis-match, there is absolutely no excuse for not knowing the combination would not work, I guess too much Hubris, they under estimated the competition...



Regards
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Well I'm in the minority but the q7s didn't sound awful; at least not with my analog software and seat position. Not to mention, I could just as easily fault every other loudspeaker at the show. Some of the praised speakers at the show sounded thin, missing information, and dynamically and low frequency constricted. But was it the speaker or something else? How do you tell? Let's also be real: every speaker-as well as component made-has a sound. Some are more allergic to some sounds than others.

In fact, one has a better chance of getting good sound at a show with a small, limited FR speaker than an all out effort. And yes, Garth was working with Alon and his partner on the setup, but let's be realistic. I don't know anyone-or maybe I'm just an idiot-who ever got the most out of a speaker in ONE DAY IN A COMPLETELY UNFAMILIAR ROOM? Even with every measuring tool available to mankind. Getting good sound is not easy. There are components that make sound and others that make music. That latter aspiration is the most elusive of all and doesn't come quickly, certainly not in a day.
 
Cyril,

Trust me, they would have to be pretty incompetent to be the only ones sinking like that, now if more than 50% of the rooms had issues, all pretty similar, then yes .....
 
a.wayne said:
Err, Yes,

I think if i sat in front of a 100k + speaker with 200K worth of electronics, setup by professionals, at an Audio Show and it sounded bad, yes, i could pretty much access where the issues are, especially since i have 40-50 other rooms for a reference on the same day.
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Really? How would you begin to assess "where the issues are"? If you walk into a room that has $100k+ speakers and $200k+ of electronics, but you have never heard any of this gear in your house and maybe nowhere else either, how would you suss that out? And what does having 40-50 other rooms "for a reference" have to do with anything? How can an unknown room that contains a system made up of components that you probably have never heard at one time before become a reference for you?

a.wayne said:
There is no excuse for bad show sound, it's never perfect, but it should never be bad, if it is and you or Myles cannot say so , then that is something else.
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Please find one audio company that exhibits at audio shows that would agree with your statement above. Of course there are excuses for bad sound in hotel rooms-lots of them. I have said for years that it's a minor miracle that anyone gets good sound out of a hotel room. The best sound at shows usually always comes from the larger suites that the well-heeled companies can afford to rent out. The average sound that I heard from the typical hotel room at this year's Axpona show was pretty poor. So if you are saying that I should agree with you that everyone who exhibits at audio shows should never have bad sound in their rooms, we live on different planets. I tell the truth about what I hear and I don't spin yarns about poor sounding rooms sounding good.
 
Myles B. Astor said:
Well I'm in the minority but the q7s didn't sound awful; at least not with my analog software and seat position. Not to mention, I could just as easily fault every other loudspeaker at the show. Some of the praised speakers at the show sounded thin, missing information, and dynamically and low frequency constricted. But was it the speaker or something else? How do you tell? Let's also be real: every speaker-as well as component made-has a sound. Some are more allergic to some sounds than others.

In fact, one has a better chance of getting good sound at a show with a small, limited FR speaker than an all out effort. And yes, Garth was working with Alon and his partner on the setup, but let's be realistic. I don't know anyone-or maybe I'm just an idiot-who ever got the most out of a speaker in ONE DAY IN A COMPLETELY UNFAMILIAR ROOM? Even with every measuring tool available to mankind. Getting good sound is not easy. There are components that make sound and others that make music. That latter aspiration is the most elusive of all and doesn't come quickly, certainly not in a day.
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Myles,

What special recording did you use?


I dont expect perfection, it's not possible, but there can be no excuse for bad sound. It's impossible to hear perfection outside of your environment , very rare will anyone else stuff approach your midnight special after months of work. But really good stuff will excite, there will be something there to let you know it will work. Magico has to at least keep up with status quo , you cant take your flagship out and expect not to be flagged for a poor showing ...
 
mep said:
Really? How would you begin to assess "where the issues are"? If you walk into a room that has $100k+ speakers and $200k+ of electronics, but you have never heard any of this gear in your house and maybe nowhere else either, how would you suss that out? And what does having 40-50 other rooms "for a reference" have to do with anything? How can an unknown room that contains a system made up of components that you probably have never heard at one time before become a reference for you?



Please find one audio company that exhibits at audio shows that would agree with your statement above. Of course there are excuses for bad sound in hotel rooms-lots of them. I have said for years that it's a minor miracle that anyone gets good sound out of a hotel room. The best sound at shows usually always comes from the larger suites that the well-heeled companies can afford to rent out. The average sound that I heard from the typical hotel room at this year's Axpona show was pretty poor. So if you are saying that I should agree with you that everyone who exhibits at audio shows should never have bad sound in their rooms, we live on different planets. I tell the truth about what I hear and I don't spin yarns about poor sounding rooms sounding good.
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Did the Magico room sound good ....... ? or was it poor..? If the avg was poor sounding , IYO what made the above avg sound good ..?


After listening to a few recordings i can tell where the issue is, dynamic compression from amplifier or speaker for eg. others can do so too, I'm not unique here, the failure comes from when audiophiles want to hear ghost coming out of the walls for that elusive recording magic call imaging, this will require "work" so i never really get caught up in that at shows or on a quick setup. A SOTA system , should not have any issues presenting a life like presentation , size dynamics and the pure emotive sense of the instruments.

Don't need a genius to get that out of a good speaker, dont even need reference amplification to sound "live" , dead speakers on the other hand , do ....



Regards...
 
cmalak said:
Myles...I agree as well but for me that just puts into question the value of going to a show as a means of really evaluating products. I guess it serves a role of demoing for those who don't have local dealers, I get that, but it seems quite futile.
Click to expand...

I think a number of great points are being made on both sides of this discussion. Ain't it great?

One topic of consideration I would pose to those questioning the value of a show experience would be to consider the process of drawing general conclusions about a particular house sound, design protocol or source format. Is it not reasonable for a person to listen to three or four different rooms with say the same brand of speakers and if one notices a common trait to the SQ in each room begin to make observations about the commonality. (These observations, of course, being irrespective of the show conditions.)
 
FlexibleAudio said:
I think a number of great points are being made on both sides of this discussion. Ain't it great?

One topic of consideration I would pose to those questioning the value of a show experience would be to consider the process of drawing general conclusions about a particular house sound, design protocol or source format. Is it not reasonable for a person to listen to three or four different rooms with say the same brand of speakers and if one notices a common trait to the SQ in each room begin to make observations about the commonality. (These observations, of course, being irrespective of the show conditions.)
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Interesting thought Paul. Would you then extend that to multiple shows as well? So, go and hear speaker model A or more general, manufacturer A over three or four shows to help begin a process of elimination perhaps?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
a.wayne said:
Myles,

What special recording did you use?


I dont expect perfection, it's not possible, but there can be no excuse for bad sound. It's impossible to hear perfection outside of your environment , very rare will anyone else stuff approach your midnight special after months of work. But really good stuff will excite, there will be something there to let you know it will work. Magico has to at least keep up with status quo , you cant take your flagship out and expect not to be flagged for a poor showing ...
Click to expand...

Two on Friday and two on Saturday.

Neil Young: Live at the Cellar Door particularly Old Man and After The Gold Rush
Satie: Gymnopedies #3 with Auriacombe and the PCO, EMI
SuperPercussion, SuperAnalogue Japan
Portrait of Art Farmer, Contemporary

Exceptional reference recordings covering everything from tonality, resolution, dynamics, soundstage, bass and vocals.
 
Elberoth said:
a.wayne - out of curiosity, I have looked into your posts (all 23 of them).

20 on Magico bashing.
3 on sth else.

Well done.
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Interesting Post , Now I'm Magico bashing , I guess you missed where others said they out rightly sounded bad at Apoxna, did you see where i said such, can you find a post where i said i thought they sounded bad.


Now back to your regular programming of personally attacking me instead of the topic......
 
Myles B. Astor said:
Two on Friday and two on Saturday.

Neil Young: Live at the Cellar Door particularly Old Man and After The Gold Rush
Satie: Gymnopedies #3 with Auriacombe and the PCO, EMI
SuperPercussion, SuperAnalogue Japan
Portrait of Art Farmer, Contemporary

Exceptional recordings covering everything from tonality, resolution, dynamics, soundstage and vocals.
Click to expand...


Thanks ....... now off for a search ... :)
 
I have learned a long time ago that you cannot carry on an intelligent discussion with someone who is:

A. Not intelligent.
B. Has an agenda which makes them appear as being not intelligent because their agenda has no room for intelligent discourse.

Either way, you can't get anywhere with either A or B so I choose not to play.
 
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