New First Watt F8

Hear Here said:
I wonder what the power output would be for 18 ohm Avantgarde speakers?

Being Class A and consuming 170 watts, this is likely to be a 24/7 consumption figure – there’s no Standby Switch and presumably no Auto-Standby circuit. The only way to stop this waste of energy is to fumble around amongst the cables for the rear panel on-off switch. Totally illegal in EU as amps need to use only a few watts when not in use. Sorry, but however good it sounds and however much of a genius Nelson Pass is, it’s a flawed design.

If the T&A AMP 8 really sounds similar, I’ll give that alisten.
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When I had the F6 I never found it that big of a deal to reach over the amp to flip the power switch. Yes it would have been preferred to have the switch on the front, but it was not a deal breaker. Certainly would not leave a class A amp on 24/7... the heat alone would be too much :).

With the T+A there is also no power switch on the front and the one on the back is covered by the power cord connector by any but the most basic power cable. I also wish there was a power switch on the front.

I have two options; I can hook the trigger cable from the DAC, but then I would have to turn on the DAC even when listening to records, and the amp would come on when listening to headphones. Granted nothing would come out the speakers because the pre-amp is off.

Or, use the auto mode. The amp automatically turns on if a signal is received from the pre. It works, but I find I always pre-play something to "kick the amp on". The amp turns off if no signal present for 20 minutes. Not a big deal but I would prefer to control when the amp comes on and off. There are also times when I might do something, maybe help Cheryal with something, and the amp has turned off. Of course pre-warming the amp is not possible unless maybe turn on the tuner for a bit, for example. I do find all my gear sounds better after 30 minutes or so of warm up.

This also presents one other problem. I would not mind using the pre-amp when listening to headphones but since the amp will automatically come on this would defeat the purpose. Therefore the headphone amp gets its signal from the DAC. Again, a power switch on the front of the amplifier would be preferred.
 
Randy Myers said:
When I had the F6 I never found it that big of a deal to reach over the amp to flip the power switch. Yes it would have been preferred to have the switch on the front, but it was not a deal breaker. Certainly would not leave a class A amp on 24/7... the heat alone would be too much :).

With the T+A there is also no power switch on the front and the one on the back is covered by the power cord connector by any but the most basic power cable. I also wish there was a power switch on the front.

I have two options; I can hook the trigger cable from the DAC, but then I would have to turn on the DAC even when listening to records, and the amp would come on when listening to headphones. Granted nothing would come out the speakers because the pre-amp is off.

Or, use the auto mode. The amp automatically turns on if a signal is received from the pre. It works, but I find I always pre-play something to "kick the amp on". The amp turns off if no signal present for 20 minutes. Not a big deal but I would prefer to control when the amp comes on and off. There are also times when I might do something, maybe help Cheryal with something, and the amp has turned off. Of course pre-warming the amp is not possible unless maybe turn on the tuner for a bit, for example. I do find all my gear sounds better after 30 minutes or so of warm up.

This also presents one other problem. I would not mind using the pre-amp when listening to headphones but since the amp will automatically come on this would defeat the purpose. Therefore the headphone amp gets its signal from the DAC. Again, a power switch on the front of the amplifier would be preferred.
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Thanks for your helpful repy, Randy.

Yes if your Class A amp is on an open top shelf, it's easy enough (but inconvienient) to reach behind the unit to switch it off, but what is Nelson thinking of to not have a front panel switch? I boycott his amps for that reason - there are plenty of excellent Class A ones that are far more user and envirnment friendly with front panel switches and/or auto shut-down circuits to comply with environment-concious countries' regulations - and not more costly than his amps.

The T&A is Class AB so less wasteful if left on - in fact, when idle these amps consume very little compared with A. My Avantgarde speakers have built-in AB amps that are left on permanently (unless I'm away for a week or more) and are stone cold when idle. As I understand Class A, they consume as much idle as when operating at full power. Peter
 
Hear Here said:
Thanks for your helpful repy, Randy.

Yes if your Class A amp is on an open top shelf, it's easy enough (but inconvienient) to reach behind the unit to switch it off, but what is Nelson thinking of to not have a front panel switch? I boycott his amps for that reason - there are plenty of excellent Class A ones that are far more user and envirnment friendly with front panel switches and/or auto shut-down circuits to comply with environment-concious countries' regulations - and not more costly than his amps.

The T&A is Class AB so less wasteful if left on - in fact, when idle these amps consume very little compared with A. My Avantgarde speakers have built-in AB amps that are left on permanently (unless I'm away for a week or more) and are stone cold when idle. As I understand Class A, they consume as much idle as when operating at full power. Peter
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this is the second time you mentioned the power switch location as a flaw which doesn't seem to bother anyone but you. First Watt is minimalist by design, its devoid of superfluous circuitry like output protection relays, standby modes, soft start, etc. Its meant to be left on continuously for best sonic performance. If Nelson's design philosophy conflicts with your 'green' sensibilities then the decision has been made for you, there's no need to deride an amplifier you haven't even heard.
 
Nelson has stated that you should not leave a class A on all the time. It draws full, 100%, power all the time. Your electric bill will double, triple, more... also heat will pull the life down considerably. Not bad when listening, but those 8, 10, 15 hours or more not being used will pull the life of the amp way down.

It only takes 15, 20 minutes, give or take for the amp to fully warm up. Leaving them on 24/7 makes zero sense.

He is not the only one mentioning the rear switch... but I also felt it was not terribly bad.

The T+A will not allow you to leave it on. It turns off after 20 minutes if not used. I notice it sound considerably better after a little warm up, like 15 minutes, 20 tops.

I will also mention that I loved the First Watt amplifier that I own, however in purity in sound the T+A is very close if not equal. Much smaller, both SE and Balanced inputs, less heat, more power, and built like a tank.
 
I was considering the J2 when I purchased my F6. It looks like the F8 is a refined J2 , I just might have to get one. If having the power switch on the back of an amp is a problem you should move on.
 
puroagave said:
this is the second time you mentioned the power switch location as a flaw which doesn't seem to bother anyone but you. First Watt is minimalist by design, its devoid of superfluous circuitry like output protection relays, standby modes, soft start, etc. Its meant to be left on continuously for best sonic performance. If Nelson's design philosophy conflicts with your 'green' sensibilities then the decision has been made for you, there's no need to deride an amplifier you haven't even heard.
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Yes, the second time - and perhaps potential buyers with an ounce of thought for the well-being of the planet may consider this point if mentioned twice - or more often.

There is an on-off switch on Nelson's amps so no need for "poluting" circuits that put the amp into standby or off after a period of non-use - all he needs to do is relocate the switch (perhaps a push one) to the front panel. Job done with no extra circuitry, though still ittegal in EU where there seems to be more concern for the environment.

As a fellow Avantgarde owner, I'm always looking for the ideal amp, but Nelson's are not on my list. They are not available (legally) in UK or any of Europe for that matter. I note you use Valvet amplification yourself and their E2se is on my list to audition when my new AG Duo XDs arrive in a week or so. I'd be interesred to know how you find Valvet with your speakers Peter
 
Some of Nelson's amps are certainly available. The Pass lineup for example :)...

And I totally agree, I cannot imagine it would have been any more difficult to have simply put the power switch on the front. It really would be a matter of running a couple wires to the front instead of the rear :).

In also know, because Nelson told me, that he had purchased a ton of these cases a long time ago. Therefore I assume the power switch, located in the rear is being used because this is how the cases are configured. Wiring to the front or the back is no differences at all... but the switch is already on the rear of the cases...
 
Hear Here said:
Yes, the second time - and perhaps potential buyers with an ounce of thought for the well-being of the planet may consider this point if mentioned twice - or more often.

There is an on-off switch on Nelson's amps so no need for "poluting" circuits that put the amp into standby or off after a period of non-use - all he needs to do is relocate the switch (perhaps a push one) to the front panel. Job done with no extra circuitry, though still ittegal in EU where there seems to be more concern for the environment.

As a fellow Avantgarde owner, I'm always looking for the ideal amp, but Nelson's are not on my list. They are not available (legally) in UK or any of Europe for that matter. I note you use Valvet amplification yourself and their E2se is on my list to audition when my new AG Duo XDs arrive in a week or so. I'd be interesred to know how you find Valvet with your speakers Peter
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Joeind has the Valvet E2 and Duos and more experience matching SS amps with the Avantgarde than I presently do. The Uno Fino is smaller and I use them in a smaller space than you would the Duo. That said, the Valvet is 12 WPC into 8 ohms and probably half that into 18 0hms. I have PLENTY of drive with 6 watts or whatever the E2 puts out. I'm interested in the F8 only because its my nature and there is no endgame in the way I view this hobby. As far as Valvet vs PP or classic SET valve amps, the Valvet is more transparent and detailed but less dimensional or 'round' sounding than say a 300B or 845/211 based amp. The E2 actually sounds very much like the First Watt F7 I had on loan. The Valvet E2 is in a slimline chassis and fits anywhere in a rack, it runs hot to the touch (underside) as it uses the entire bottom plate as a heat sink. The E2's power switch is hidden under the front face plate but easily accessible.
 
I totally agree with your assessments of the E2 vs F7 and various tube amps. I’m also curious about the F8 - just because it’s new and coming out. Nothing beats a good quiet tube amp, nothing. But the convenience of solid state is undeniable and sound quality is always getting better.

I’m sorry I sold my Luxman MQ-300 but there’s always something else around the corner. I personally love a warm, sweet, round and 3D sound stage. I’m not sure what’s next but I have about 3-4 ideas. :)

So far the SIT3 is my absolute favorite solid state amp on my Avantgarde, with the GAT2, the SIT3 is sublime. The Luxman 590 is a close second.



puroagave said:
Joeind has the Valvet E2 and Duos and more experience matching SS amps with the Avantgarde than I presently do. The Uno Fino is smaller and I use them in a smaller space than you would the Duo. That said, the Valvet is 12 WPC into 8 ohms and probably half that into 18 0hms. I have PLENTY of drive with 6 watts or whatever the E2 puts out. I'm interested in the F8 only because its my nature and there is no endgame in the way I view this hobby. As far as Valvet vs PP or classic SET valve amps, the Valvet is more transparent and detailed but less dimensional or 'round' sounding than say a 300B or 845/211 based amp. The E2 actually sounds very much like the First Watt F7 I had on loan. The Valvet E2 is in a slimline chassis and fits anywhere in a rack, it runs hot to the touch (underside) as it uses the entire bottom plate as a heat sink. The E2's power switch is hidden under the front face plate but easily accessible.
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Randy Myers said:
I also know, because Nelson told me, that he had purchased a ton of these cases a long time ago. Therefore I assume the power switch, located in the rear is being used because this is how the cases are configured. Wiring to the front or the back is no differences at all... but the switch is already on the rear of the cases...
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I'm sure the ton of cases was not bought "off the shelf" as he could have ordered them by the dozen if they were. No doubt he specified the design and the case builder wanted an order of a ton. Well he didn't specify carefully. No easily accessable on-off switch for a Class A amp is inexcusable.

OK, let's give the benefit of the doubt - he had other things on his mind and forgot that users would want to turn off his amps - why then dosen't he drill a hole in the front panel of his remaining front panels for a push-button switch and add a blanking plate to block the hole in the back panel? A few $ would do the job without spoiling the case one jot.
 
My preamp has the power switches on the back. I asked about having them on the front. That required wire passing by electronics introducing all sorts of noise and distortion along the way. I have no trouble reaching behind my First Sound preamps and my Audion Black Shadow to turn them on and off. It really doesn't cross my mind to much. Sure the front would be nice.
I never turn my dac or server off. They take hours and hours to get warmed up and into their zone.
 
FWIW. I highly doubt Nelson just made a mistake in placing the power switch. Grounding and layout inside an amp is all about precise wire management. I am confident the power switch is where it is to enhance performance and lower noise.
 
Kingrex said:
FWIW. I highly doubt Nelson just made a mistake in placing the power switch. Grounding and layout inside an amp is all about precise wire management. I am confident the power switch is where it is to enhance performance and lower noise.
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I totally agree.
 
Hear Here said:
I'm sure the ton of cases was not bought "off the shelf" as he could have ordered them by the dozen if they were. No doubt he specified the design and the case builder wanted an order of a ton. Well he didn't specify carefully. No easily accessible on-off switch for a Class A amp is inexcusable.

OK, let's give the benefit of the doubt - he had other things on his mind and forgot that users would want to turn off his amps - why then doesn't he drill a hole in the front panel of his remaining front panels for a push-button switch and add a blanking plate to block the hole in the back panel? A few $ would do the job without spoiling the case one jot.
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He told me these cases where purchased/built for him many years ago... if you notice, all First Watt amps pretty much look the same, other than logo on the face plate.

I would prefer the switch on the front, but I also felt that the switches location was not that big of a deal to me. It certainly was not inaccessible. I always made sure that there was plenty of room around the First Watt since being Class A it got rather warm.

Also, I trust the genius that is Nelson Pass. He definitely did it this way for a reason. What may appear easy to me looking inside the case probably had a sonic reason for being located there :).... as I also assume with my T+A. Being who they are they just designed an automatic way around it, although there are always plus and minuses in every design decision.
 
The best amps I ever heard (most involving musically) with Avantgardes were Viva - all of them actually - but especially the Auroras with 845 tubes.

IMO, IME.
 
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