My Munich Notes with Western Electric Lowdown and music

Joe Roberts said:
So do you, but note that I am, in fact, agreeing with you.

Also, note that last years system was more vintage than this one, i.e. 90 years old. I listened to both years' systems all day / many days in the MOC and I have spent extended time with two superior 12A/13A installations at Silbatone Korea over the past years. Neither one is among my personal top WE speaker choices, but the show is about the visitors and it is rather interesting to tally impressions.

Hard to understand crowd reactions sometimes, maybe most times, but I calls my analysis as I sees it. I'd say it was 65-45 for this year.

There is simply no "right" answer. Maybe most people like the one that is in front of them?

A more penetrating question is why am I seeing more Jack Daniels T shirts here in Schwabing than I would in Kentucky? Just saw the third one for the day. That is just weird.
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Welcome joe. What is your top WE speakers choices?

Also I am glad to read some reviews on the silbatone room. I have not been able to find much on line yet besides photos.
 
Welcome joe. What is your top WE speakers choices?
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A huge question but I like Mirrophonic and the 1940s studio gear like 757A. Most WE lovers prefer the romance of the first-generation 555 driver based systems that have been the core of our Munich educational outreach program.

I did complain (I really wanted to hear what the setup could do) but I think the young Asian lady did not understand English; when I mentioned the channel imbalance, she simply said 'yes'.
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She was a smart engineering student and a pro translator working for GIP, but I'm sure she had no idea what "channel imbalance" means in any language! Had you picked one of the many old ugly nerdy guys, such as myself, over youth and beauty, you might have gotten through...but I don't blame you!

Nobody is handling GIP in the USA in any official capacity. I'll offer to answer basic questions offline even though I try to stay as far out of the retail flow of audio business as possible. FAX is highly recommended over email for communication with GIP.
 
They seem to remember FAX quite well in Japan.

GIP (and a few other Japanese traders I know) barely use computers, if at all! I use a free online fax service when necessary.

They take "old school" to a new level!
 
Joe Hi, sadly I couldn't attend this years Munich but I have thoroughly enjoyed everyone of your previous presentations, without Silbatone Munich would just not be the same.
May I ask what is the approximate frequency response of this years WE's ?
Last year,which I thought particularly good ,I believe you were using a tweeter with them which wouldn't have been used originally?
How big an auditorium, would they have been designed for, I remember last year you mentioned that a large theatre would have used four speakers two suspended and two firing upwards?
Thanks for all of your efforts.
Keith.
 
Purité Audio said:
May I ask what is the approximate frequency response of this years WE's ?
Last year,which I thought particularly good ,I believe you were using a tweeter with them which wouldn't have been used originally?
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The TA-4165A 12" was not used with a tweeter. That 597A tweeter was a super top of the line item and, although quite iconic, they are actually quite rare.

We add it to all of the WE presentations whether appropopriate or anachronistic. In this case, the TA-4165 was concurrent with the 597A tweeter but they would be unlikely mates in practice. The 597A was for showcase Mirrophonic systems in large movie palaces.

It is a modern audio show so we beef up the highs to quasi-modern standards. The tweeter goes up to a remarkable 13k.

One reason the 597A is rare is because the 594A midrange driver was designed with highly-controlled mass roll off characteristics so that a simple 6dB RC filter in the amplifier would yield good performance out to 13k without a tweeter.

13k was consider ideal by Bell Labs, since it would capture at least the 2nd harmonic of all orchestra instruments. Even in today's supertweeters. I wonder how much above this point is actually correlated with the input signal and how much is random ringing that fills in the frequency response graph with junk tizz.

I would estimate the LF as perhaps mid 50s-60hz with a slow roll off. The LF balance is adjusted by choosing different sized wings on the sides and/or top of the baffle. In that room, the small wings worked great and the bass was a bit boomy with large wings. Some rooms, no wings are required.

The original setup for the TA4165 was a flat 8 foot high baffle and this was specified for 200 seat theaters.

They are clearly a modification of the Jensen A-12, using A-12 frames, but there is little resemblance to the sound of a stock Jensen. Unlike the Jensens' bakelitized cones, the cones in the WE are relatively soft.

The TA-4165A is virtually unknown, even to scholars of WE. There are only four in existence that we know about and Silbatone just snagged the other pair for the museum collection.

Silbatone may be a black hole for WE gear but at least my Korean bud loves to share!
 
Thanks Joe, that is very interesting ,so the TA-4165's were designed for relatively small auditoria, just two hundred seats, last years ,presumably would have been used in tandem ,In much larger theatres?
Thanks again,
Keith.
 
Who knows? All I have to go on is a few sheets of engineering specs for the TA-4165.


In general, all of the WE systems were used as additive building blocks from the earliest days. The "snail horn" era speakers were very narrow horizontal dispersion so more would be added to ensure complete coverage. Mirrophonics and early 555 systems had multiple driver throats so you could add many drivers on one horn for more SPL. Add more woofers to match number of HF drivers.

As for the TA-4165A 12", I don't think this was used much. We do have one that is in a portable cabinet.

I don't even know how to research this question. There is no data.

Next step up would be a TA-4181 18" in the TA-7395 baffle that we pressed into service for the 12". I have heard this setup and it is a tremendous and dramatic LF reproducer. It is a joy to hear a woofer that turns off quickly, as these open baffle short horn things do.
 
On the floor directly above you there was a guy demo-ing a dual woofer open back speaker. 2-way high efficiency with some sort of horn tweeter. They seemed to sound just fine. Open back can work really well if its set up right (in that regard, usually using an amplifier with a very low damping factor, otherwise you get no bass).
 
That was Wolf von Langa,a friend of mine. They sounded quite good in an obviously challenging small weird room.

Actually, what these systems entail is a speaker with high Qts, i.e. magnetic/suspension damping.

Amps then had low to moderate damping factor and when using some high Qts older speakers with a low damping factor amp, one must add series resistance in the speaker line to get the hoped for rise at/below resonant frequency to fill in the lows.

We were running the 4165s on amps where the output tubes ran open loop, moderate damping factor at best. The damping should be worked into the speaker design for open baffle and amps designed accordingly.

Thomas Mayer's 300B amps in the von Langa room were no feedback also, I believe, hence moderate damping factor characteristic of low impedance power triodes.
 
a.wayne said:
Interesting observation, i have a few friends who dont have hi-fi systems, but are ardent concert and symphony goers,( they travel world wide ) if you place them in the sweet spot, they get fidgety and after a few minutes get up, mostly because it does not sound real to them, imaging,sound stage, things coming from no where, etc, it sounds abnormal to them, set them way, way back in the room or off to the sides and then it sounds real to them , much close to what they are accustomed to hearing , at a live performance..
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I would expect that to happen. Stereo is trying its hardest to create an illusion, but the two point sources just can not do it realistically, however its what we have for general consumption.
 
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