My lying ears!

[Vapor1]

Really? Most of the paying customers that I've come across could give a rats butt about measurements.

That's the kind of thinking that explains why their paying reader base is shrinking constantly. All one has to do is look at any audio forum (this one included) and it should be obvious there are a whole slew of possible new customers. Or even more pointedly, read the comments of just about any review on Absolute Sound or Stereophile. My experience dealing with customers in the audio World on a daily basis is that a majority of them are jaded, cynical, and flat out don't trust reviewers.

Again, ignoring the problem will not make it go away.

 

[Mike]

That might be the public reaction, but privately people turn to every review they can find when considering products. The same goes for cars, dishwashers and hotels.

 

[Vapor1]

Based on my very unscientific test, the LV's measure exactly where they say. I'm creating the same SPL's as my 93db STRADS with less push from the preamp.
Again...not scientific...but I don't have to turn up my preamp as high to get the same SPL (app on my phone) using a pink noise track.

I'm just telling you from a position of knowing what's possible and what isn't. There's no bending the rules in this regard, cabinet size, sensitivity, and bass extension are all tied together in Hoffmans Iron Law.

It's just not possible to get 94db sensitivity with a 6 ohm speaker, with 35hz bass extension, and a 1.5 cu/ft cabinet. Either the bass extension or sensitivity is an exaggeration, or both. Measurements would very easily give the answer. Oh, and the Scan 9900 tweeter they use is 91db sensitive. That would be about my guess for real sensitivity of the final speaker, 91db.

Of course, me saying that has nothing to do with how good a speaker they may be. You clearly like them, so don't take this as trying to mitigate that point.

 

[Vapor1]

That might be the public reaction, but privately people turn to every review they can find when considering products. The same goes for cars, dishwashers and hotels.

They may read some online for free, but very very few of the people I speak with give their money to the audio reviewers.

Consumer Reports and the auto mags don't have a credibility problem. They both provide enough tangible data to substantiate their opinions.

 

[mep]

They may read some online for free, but very very few of the people I speak with give their money to the audio reviewers.

Consumer Reports and the auto mags don't have a credibility problem. They both provide enough tangible data to substantiate their opinions.

Wow! You are in the business of manufacturing speakers aren't you?

 

[Vapor1]

Wow! You are in the business of manufacturing speakers aren't you?

There are plenty of reviewers I trust, and know are ethical people. I've also had reviewers try to shake me down for their pay to play scheme, I told them to shove it. I don't paint them all with a broad brush, but know enough to cover my own butt, and have no intention of playing the game to get a few sales.

But none of that is the point of what we're discussing. The point is to listen to your customers, both current and potential ones, and give them what they want. That's Business 101.

 

[jdandy]

 

[Face]

Based on my very unscientific test, the LV's measure exactly where they say. I'm creating the same SPL's as my 93db STRADS with less push from the preamp.
Again...not scientific...but I don't have to turn up my preamp as high to get the same SPL (app on my phone) using a pink noise track.

Mike, it's also very possible your Strad's specs are exaggerated.

 

[Vapor1]

Mike, it's also very possible your Strad's specs are exaggerated.

Actually Atkinson tested the Strad some time ago and it met it's sensitivity spec, albeit with the help of a 3ohm impedance.

Sonus Faber Stradivari Homage loudspeaker Measurements | Stereophile.com

 

[mep]

There are plenty of reviewers I trust, and know are ethical people. I've also had reviewers try to shake me down for their pay to play scheme, I told them to shove it. I don't paint them all with a broad brush, but know enough to cover my own butt, and have no intention of playing the game to get a few sales.

But none of that is the point of what we're discussing. The point is to listen to your customers, both current and potential ones, and give them what they want. That's Business 101.

So you are saying that you have had reviewers shake you down for money and you think this a wide spread practice in the industry?

 

[Vapor1]

So you are saying that you have had reviewers shake you down for money and you think this a wide spread practice in the industry?

I've said all I care to say about that tangent. The only point and hope for what I said so far was to maybe help a few realize that inclusion of measurements along with opinion would go a long way toward repairing the cynicism that's rampant, with absolutely zero downside.

 

[Face]

So you are saying that you have had reviewers shake you down for money and you think this a wide spread practice in the industry?

I have a few friends in the industry and it's happened to them as well. I'm not saying at all that all of them do it, but it's definitely not unheard of.

 

[mep]

I've said all I care to say about that tangent. The only point and hope for what I said so far was to maybe help a few realize that inclusion of measurements along with opinion would go a long way toward repairing the cynicism that's rampant, with absolutely zero downside.

Well, you made some very serious accusations against reviewers and now you don't want to talk about it. Sounds like a hit and run to me. Reviewers aren't paid to buy test gear nor are they trained to take measurements that will withstand scientific scruitiny.

 

[mep]

I have a few friends in the industry and it's happened to them as well. I'm not saying at all that all of them do it, but it's definitely not unheard of.

So you are saying that reviewers are sticking their hands out and asking for money to write a review?

 

[Face]

So you are saying that reviewers are sticking their hands out and asking for money to write a review?

Whether it's holding a product hostage for months or even a year+, or asking for asking for a ridiculous discount, I'm saying some do...in one way or another. But, as I mentioned before, I'm not saying all of them do, and I would like to believe most of them are not guilty of these practices...especially those who are active here.

 

[Zero]

Vapor,

I get where you're coming from. Truly I do. If a publication were to one day pop up and include objective data alongside their equipment reviews, I'd have a nerdgasm. It would be even better if the same publication would take the time to explain how to accurately and reliably interpret the included data. But here's the thing...

How many people do you really think buy gear based off of how it measures?

If I were to interview 100 B&W customers, 100 Grado customers, 100 Wilson Audio customers, and 100 McIntosh customers and ask them whether or not available objective data had any role in their purchasing decision - how many of these people do you think would say yes? Heck, how many of these people do you think would even care?

These are the people who represent the buying public. It's not the cynical audiophile who posts on forums and disregards any claim that isn't supported by a wall of pretty graphs. While some these guys may collectively form the backbone that many small, consumer-direct businesses rely on, the bottom line is that these people are a minority within a minority.

When you get right down to it Vapor, I'm not disregarding the notion of including measurements in equipment reviews. What I am disregarding however, is the notion that the inclusion of objective data will somehow save a struggling publication.

 

[BlueFox]

My attitude towards measurements is that it is now trivial to meet the currently accepted measurement criteria; frequency response, distortion, power, etc., and I expect gear to measure good. So, there must be some other subjective aspect that differentiates gear with the same measurements. That is where reviews, word of mouth, etc. come into play.

If somebody is being payed to lie then they should be drawn and quartered, or at least shunned.

 

[AJ Soundfield]

Is the Dayton Audio Stuff any good ..?

Yes. For a reviewer, more than enough. Again, a simple impedance curve would tell whether it should be paired with certain amps or not.
The phone mic is plenty good for a LP spectral shot, especially in the bass, even if for individual rather than published use. $130.
No "oscilloscopes" and lab coat speciousness needed.

cheers,

AJ

 

[a.wayne]

I've said all I care to say about that tangent. The only point and hope for what I said so far was to maybe help a few realize that inclusion of measurements along with opinion would go a long way toward repairing the cynicism that's rampant, with absolutely zero downside.

Dont you just love these neophytes ..... The internet is a god send , 20 yrs ago , it was , err , tough ..

 

[a.wayne]

Here's a question: what speaker would the group consider a great example of a speaker that measures exemplary?

Also, I'm curious - what series measured better - the Magico Q Series or the Magico S Series? I suspect the Q series measures better, but to my ear, the S series sounds better.

I remember when I first heard the brand new S5's. I was one of the first to hear them and the dealer had Q5's in the room at the time.

I reported on another forum that the S5's sounded so much better. Well, you can imagine the reaction!

And you know what? The true litmus test of any product is what people BUY. When they're writing that check, are they buying Q's or S's? I bet Magico sold a lot more S's than Q's.

Sure, sure, you can argue that is because the S series cost less, but the Q1/Q3 was always in reach when you are already stepping up to the plate to buy S5's.[/QUOTE

What measures well and what sounds good to your Mic ( ears ) and taste may not be relevant or correlates well to you , hence why all audio designers dance that tight rope between design metrics and house sound, this so called House sound is what each designer has determined to be the desired sonics wanted by his customers .


Hence tubes /SS, panel , box speakers .... No one thing for everyone, subjective /objective evaluations are not mutually exclusive...