MQA Discussion

[lallygagger]

I guess you have decided to not merit this :-

But over all I agree with j2020 where he says, ''Instead of dwelling on the flops, I would rather thank my lucky stars to be able to enjoy the ones that succeed.'

You are quoting me, J2020. In my opinion you make a some good points. And I agreed with what you said in the statement above because it was a good point and germane to the subject at hand. But I do not agree with the ''angry sourpuss'' comment.
That type of comment is an personal attack which not only offends the person to which it is directed but also breaks down communication by
1. detouring us into the kind of off the subject back and forth that we are engaging in now and
2. by potentially intimidating someone from offering his opinions.

I feel that any poster should be able to express his ideas about the subject without worrying that he will be ridiculed or put down for it. If we don't agree with them we can debate them. But it should not become personal... IMHO.

 

[j2020]

You are quoting me, J2020. In my opinion you make a some good points. And I agreed with what you said in the statement above because it was a good point and germane to the subject at hand. But I do not agree with the ''angry sourpuss'' comment.
That type of comment is an personal attack which not only offends the person to which it is directed but also breaks down communication by
1. detouring us into the kind of off the subject back and forth that we are engaging in now and
2. by potentially intimidating someone from offering his opinions.

I feel that any poster should be able to express his ideas about the subject without worrying that he will be ridiculed or put down for it. If we don't agree with them we can debate them. But it should not become personal... IMHO.

I personally find it offensive that someone here has appointed himself the forum police by telling me off about sharing my experience with the Meridian 808v6 and MQA(which he missed before his offensive post) when the administrator (Mike) and the OP(Jim) have allowed me some leeway in doing so. After all, Meridian "invented" MQA and the 808v6 is the first Meridian player to be able to decode MQA.
Having chastised me to stick to topic, he then goes on about cellular technology, MP3, DVD, etc, which are all actually fine by me because that's how a discussion wends its way to other things before coming back to the topic at hand. I think others may be interested to hear my experience with the 808v6 and MQA and if someone here does not want or care to, he can simply move on. He just needs to grow up in terms of maintaining cordiality and allowing some digression if it can be called that, in an interesting discussion thread such as this. And if I am offensive to this one particular person but to no one else here, I think that those who dish out the first offense should be able to swallow their own bitter medicine.

 

[Mike]

Alright, let's all take a deep breath and get back to focusing on the topic at hand. I'm glad we have first hand experiences with MQA and over the next 6-12 months, those doing more listening to MQA and comparisons will grow.

At Axpona I had breakfast with Fremer. He told me that his issue to date with digital has been around how digital fails to get proper space and time right. He was raving about how MQA fixes that.

 

[j2020]

Alright, let's all take a deep breath and get back to focusing on the topic at hand. I'm glad we have first hand experiences with MQA and over the next 6-12 months, those doing more listening to MQA and comparisons will grow.

At Axpona I had breakfast with Fremer. He told me that his issue to date with digital has been around how digital fails to get proper space and time right. He was raving about how MQA fixes that.

Good to know that an analog diehard like Fremer is raving about MQA.

 

[lallygagger]

J2020 reports that, when heard through the 808v6 (when it was working properly) MQA was spectacular.
CPP reports that, when heard through an upgraded Mytek Brooklyn DSD files sounded better than MQA.

What to believe???

 

[Mike]

J2020 reports that, when heard through the 808v6 (when it was working properly) MQA was spectacular.
CPP reports that, when heard through an upgraded Mytek Brooklyn DSD files sounded better than MQA.

What to believe???

Like I've been saying - some albums were amazing, others were "meh". Wait and see. My personal belief is that it will take off. Meridian has more "Warners" to be announced. Getting the labels on board is huge. The naysayers have been pretty quiet about that bombshell yesterday.

 

[CPP]

Like I've been saying - some albums were amazing, others were "meh". Wait and see. My personal belief is that it will take off. Meridian has more "Warners" to be announced. Getting the labels on board is huge. The naysayers have been pretty quiet about that bombshell yesterday.

Agree its all about the music. I'm just setting and waiting.

 

[lallygagger]

Like I've been saying - some albums were amazing, others were "meh". Wait and see. My personal belief is that it will take off. Meridian has more "Warners" to be announced. Getting the labels on board is huge. The naysayers have been pretty quiet about that bombshell yesterday.

Warner coming on board is indeed a very significant development. What this means to me personally is that the more this takes off, the more apt AMR will be willing to offer an upgrade for my DAC, which, as I stated, I truly love. That route seem more sensible to me than hurrying to buy the Explorer 2 just to find out what the hoopla is all about.

There is a big price difference between the Mytek and the 808v6. I certainly hope that it won't be necessary to spend megabucks to enjoy fully the MQA experience. I know that the 808v6 is also a cd player (supposedly state of the art) and that would account for a lot of the price difference. But still, There must be a reason why Meridian uses it to demonstrate MQA and not the Explorer 2, which according to Robert Harley will supposedly allow us to hear the MQA experience.
One would think that when demonstrating this technology to potential customers and reviewers Meridianwould at least do so as well with the Explorer 2 in order to show how economically versatile MQA is and how it can reach a much wider audience than just those willing to spend thousands in order to enjoy its benefits.

So why don't they?

 

[still-one]

lallygagger

There are several reasons why MQA might demo their product using a 808v6 rather than a Explorer 2. Many of the initial demo's were performed in shops that offer Meridian gear. The 808's are CD players, pre-amps, Sooloos endpoints, and DAC's. (That is one reason they are relatively expensive as they can accept analog and other digital sources). The demo I attended had the MQA files on a Meridian/Sooloos MC200 delivering the files via ethernet to the 808v6 and directly via digital out to Meridian's top of the line 8000 series digital speakers. In other words no pre-amp or amps besides those in the speakers are required.

 

[CPP]

Warner coming on board is indeed a very significant development. What this means to me personally is that the more this takes off, the more apt AMR will be willing to offer an upgrade for my DAC, which, as I stated, I truly love. That route seem more sensible to me than hurrying to buy the Explorer 2 just to find out what the hoopla is all about.

There is a big price difference between the Mytek and the 808v6. I certainly hope that it won't be necessary to spend megabucks to enjoy fully the MQA experience. I know that the 808v6 is also a cd player (supposedly state of the art) and that would account for a lot of the price difference. But still, There must be a reason why Meridian uses it to demonstrate MQA and not the Explorer 2, which according to Robert Harley will supposedly allow us to hear the MQA experience.
One would think that when demonstrating this technology to potential customers and reviewers Meridianwould at least do so as well with the Explorer 2 in order to show how economically versatile MQA is and how it can reach a much wider audience than just those willing to spend thousands in order to enjoy its benefits.

So why don't they?

It might have to do with the audience at these audio shows. The ones that attend are not your $300.00 crowd. Maybe once some of the music that appeals to the young mobile crowd is MQA ready, then maybe a budget MQA DAC will take off and support the technology.

PS:Of course Pioneer Launches World’s First MQA-Ready Portable Digital Audio Player at IFA 2015. But haven't heard any buzz about it.
http://hiresaudiocentral.com/pionee...dy-portable-digital-audio-player-at-ifa-2015/

 

[radioactive]

Once again to those who haven't read my posts, I stated that I have heard MQA. I responded to Mike and explained that I wasn't blown away from what I heard. If DCS's pending upgrade to the FW/Software supports MQA I will try it in my home to see if there is a difference that I couldn't hear from the demonstrations. I am skeptical it will be any different as the equipment and setup were top-notch and officially sponsored.

I've tried to keep to the issues related to the technology, my personal experiences, what trends are wrt this sort of technology, and my plans on its adoption. As you can tell from my signature block, and photos of my system, I've invested a significant amount on my audio system and have been an avid audiophile for decades. I have experience with MQA, I was not blown away, and am not selling for them or Meridian. I have NO/ZERO audio industry affiliation, BUT I am an engineer with a postgrad and have a good grasp of technology.

It's very easy to accuse those whom you don't agree with of being "negative" or go on the offensive to attack them personally which only demonstrates a lack of experience, confidence or even a hidden agenda. It's difficult to come out and say anything that might be construed as "negative" about a technology for just these reasons. I did so full well knowing that there would be those (you know who you are) that would come to the defense of MQA. I hoped that the technical merits, personal listening experiences, and other analyses and would be presented. Thanks to those who have done so.

Finally, if you read my posts on this forum, you'll see I don't bash, go negative or criticize other's. This is an expensive hobby and I take it seriously. I contributed and hoped that this discussion would lead to additional information and insight on MQA -- warts and all.

 

[radioactive]

So has everyone read the AS article on the Explorer2 DAC and MQA? The way they stated it, it sounds like it's not that big of a difference (though certainly there is one) between the Explorer2 and the 808v6 when playing back MQA. Performance on PCM/Redbook wasn't that great, from what I recall of the article. I really think Meridian should be showing how good the Explorer2 is with MQA and comparing that to a high-end DAC in the $10-20K range. [correct me if they've done so]. It seems like the Explorer2 is going to be key to MQA's success. It's priced incredibly aggressive, has approx.10x the power of the 808v2 (yes that's a pretty old unit, but still a significant accomplishment that they can get that kind of processing power in a form factor that's 1/20th the size of the 808v2).

If I were serious about MQA, I'd be looking into the Explorer2 to "test the waters" if you will. Heck, I'm sure it will resale for almost as much as you paid for it.

It might have to do with the audience at these audio shows. The ones that attend are not your $300.00 crowd. Maybe once some of the music that appeals to the young mobile crowd is MQA ready, then maybe a budget MQA DAC will take off and support the technology.

PS:Of course Pioneer Launches World’s First MQA-Ready Portable Digital Audio Player at IFA 2015. But haven't heard any buzz about it.
http://hiresaudiocentral.com/pionee...dy-portable-digital-audio-player-at-ifa-2015/

 

[radioactive]

So does that mean that Fremer thinks that soundstage is better with MQA? Space and time to me implies three-dimensionality, right? That's also a phase issue. There is so much that can be read into that statement...

It may be a red herring, but I never got the impression that digital had a space issue. I go back to the experience where (strange music choice I know), I was at my dealer's about a year ago and they had a set of Ref 250's with the Sasha 2's and a Vinyl rig playing back Deadmau5's "Raise Your Weapon". We went back and listened to the same song over their Vivaldi stack and it sounded like it just opened up in space. Greta Svabo Bech's voice was waaay much better on the vinyl version (of course with the tube amps it was lovely even), but it felt "flat" to me. Maybe it's more of a recording issue and an unfair comparison to use a full Vivaldi stack to a $20K vinyl playback unit, but I got out of vinyl a long time before digital matured so my experience with vinyl is limited.

At Axpona I had breakfast with Fremer. He told me that his issue to date with digital has been around how digital fails to get proper space and time right. He was raving about how MQA fixes that.

 

[lallygagger]

So has everyone read the AS article on the Explorer2 DAC and MQA? The way they stated it, it sounds like it's not that big of a difference (though certainly there is one) between the Explorer2 and the 808v6 when playing back MQA. Performance on PCM/Redbook wasn't that great, from what I recall of the article. I really think Meridian should be showing how good the Explorer2 is with MQA and comparing that to a high-end DAC in the $10-20K range. [correct me if they've done so]. It seems like the Explorer2 is going to be key to MQA's success. It's priced incredibly aggressive, has approx.10x the power of the 808v2 (yes that's a pretty old unit, but still a significant accomplishment that they can get that kind of processing power in a form factor that's 1/20th the size of the 808v2).

If I were serious about MQA, I'd be looking into the Explorer2 to "test the waters" if you will. Heck, I'm sure it will resale for almost as much as you paid for it.

I would like to read that AS article. Can you post a link to it or tell me how to find it?

Robert Harley told me that they use the 808v6 in their demos. I agree that Meridian should be showing how good MQA is using the E2 as well as the 808v6. Your points about the economic advantage of the E2 and MQA's potential viability make sense with respect to a wide market appeal. If it plays back as well (or nearly as well) as the 808v6, and if MQA turns out to be as great sounding as has been reported, I would not even care about its PCM performance.

 

[Mike]

Michael Fremer on redbook Phase-shift:

"In the Meridian room I got to hear two demos of MQA Ltd's MQA technology (Master Quality Authenticated) wherein Bob Stuart and his team analyze the mediocre A/D converters of days gone by that produced the worst kind of 'digititis" that gave us headaches and made our teeth going—that the measurement freaks said was our imagination—and produce a "filter fix" in software and apply it to the recording. When you get to hear this you'll be amazed by how good these awful CDs can be made to sound. It works best when the actual A/D converter is known but they can "forensically" analyze the files and figure out the problems in terms of ringing and especially phase-shift and correct them. Of course you'll need an MQA decoder to get the benefits of an MQA encoded file but major and minor audio manufacturers are getting on board. I'd be hesitant to invest in an expensive DAC today based on what I heard. It is not at all subtle. We heard a "before and after" demo of a Keith Jarrett live CD that was impressive.

The other demo I heard in the room involves MQA and TIDAL. MQA also includes a higher bit rate and sampling rate encoding process wherein a 24 bit 354kHz signal can be 'wrapped around' a CD resolution file like the kind TIDAL streams. So through a standard DAC you'd get CD resolution but through an MQA equipped DAC you'd get 24 bit 354kHz resolution. The Brooklyn DAC (a prototype) was so equipped and we got to hear via TIDAL special files that were MQA encoded, streamed and then decoded at full resolution. We will have the best of both worlds streamed and spun on vinyl."


Read more at http://www.analogplanet.com/content/ces-2016-show-wrap#kK4A6rs1bkj6abul.99


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[radioactive]

Not being a naysayer, but I did look up this press release and it says this [everybody feel free to pile on to the "negative guy"] :

" The agreement – the first between MQA and any major music company – will significantly increase music fans’ access to hi-resolution music globally. The agreement paves the way for recordings from WMG’s diverse roster of acclaimed artists and its world-renowned catalogue to be made available in studio master quality through MQA distributors."
[http://www.mqa.co.uk/customer/news/post/warner-mqa-deal]​

It's very light on specifics and I can't seem to find any. If someone has them, please post the link. As for specifics, I mean the following:
1. Is this for future releases only?
2. What's the plan for titles in Warner's vaults? Are they going to re-encode all of them, a subset?
3. What's the timeline for releases?

This all sounds very familiar. Remember this one: http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/News/Press_Archive/199802/980217/
[the title is "Philips, Sony Announce Licensing Plans for DSD, Super Audio CD"]

Or this statement from The Absolute Sound on DSD?

"But that’s about to change now that Sony Music, Universal, and Warner are opening their vaults; with HDtracks and Acoustic Sounds offering DSD downloads, I expect a much wider variety of music to be marketed, which should increase interest in downloading DSD albums."​

[http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/the-abcs-of-dsd-downloads/?page=6]

I'm not saying I know 100% one way or the other, only showing that the industry has done this before and not followed through in a real tangible way. An announcement is great, but where rubber hits the road is in actual releases.

Like I've been saying - some albums were amazing, others were "meh". Wait and see. My personal belief is that it will take off. Meridian has more "Warners" to be announced. Getting the labels on board is huge. The naysayers have been pretty quiet about that bombshell yesterday.

 

[radioactive]

So it's actually in the print version, but I can't seem to find it online unfortunately. I don't think I can transcribe it or face the wrath of copyright infringement. I would think that Meridian will have a version of it on their site soon though as it's a review of their product and from my experience all manufacturers tend to make reviews available on their sites. I'll keep an eye out if I find it and post it when I see it. Has anyone else seen a version of it online?

It's on page 86 of the May/June 2016 edition and it's titled "Meridian Explorer2 MQA DAC - Lowering the Price of Admission"

I would like to read that AS article. Can you post a link to it or tell me how to find it?

Robert Harley told me that they use the 808v6 in their demos. I agree that Meridian should be showing how good MQA is using the E2 as well as the 808v6. Your points about the economic advantage of the E2 and MQA's potential viability make sense with respect to a wide market appeal. If it plays back as well (or nearly as well) as the 808v6, and if MQA turns out to be as great sounding as has been reported, I would even care about its PCM performance.

 

[lallygagger]

Not being a naysayer, but I did look up this press release and it says this [everybody feel free to pile on to the "negative guy"] :

" The agreement – the first between MQA and any major music company – will significantly increase music fans’ access to hi-resolution music globally. The agreement paves the way for recordings from WMG’s diverse roster of acclaimed artists and its world-renowned catalogue to be made available in studio master quality through MQA distributors."
[http://www.mqa.co.uk/customer/news/post/warner-mqa-deal]​

1. Is this for future releases only?
2. What's the plan for titles in Warner's vaults? Are they going to re-encode all of them, a subset?
3. What's the timeline for releases?

The statement ''The agreement paves the way for recordings from WMG's ..... world-renowned catalogue...'' seems to indicate from there existing catalogue and not just for future releases

As for your other two questions, who knows?

Once again I ask you to direct me to the AS article about the Explorer 2 and MQA where it is stated that there is not much difference between the MQA performance of the E2 and that of the 808v6.
I have been looking and I can't find it.

 

[j2020]

Michael Fremer on redbook Phase-shift:

"In the Meridian room I got to hear two demos of MQA Ltd's MQA technology (Master Quality Authenticated) wherein Bob Stuart and his team analyze the mediocre A/D converters of days gone by that produced the worst kind of 'digititis" that gave us headaches and made our teeth going—that the measurement freaks said was our imagination—and produce a "filter fix" in software and apply it to the recording. When you get to hear this you'll be amazed by how good these awful CDs can be made to sound. It works best when the actual A/D converter is known but they can "forensically" analyze the files and figure out the problems in terms of ringing and especially phase-shift and correct them. Of course you'll need an MQA decoder to get the benefits of an MQA encoded file but major and minor audio manufacturers are getting on board. I'd be hesitant to invest in an expensive DAC today based on what I heard. It is not at all subtle. We heard a "before and after" demo of a Keith Jarrett live CD that was impressive.

The other demo I heard in the room involves MQA and TIDAL. MQA also includes a higher bit rate and sampling rate encoding process wherein a 24 bit 354kHz signal can be 'wrapped around' a CD resolution file like the kind TIDAL streams. So through a standard DAC you'd get CD resolution but through an MQA equipped DAC you'd get 24 bit 354kHz resolution. The Brooklyn DAC (a prototype) was so equipped and we got to hear via TIDAL special files that were MQA encoded, streamed and then decoded at full resolution. We will have the best of both worlds streamed and spun on vinyl."


Read more at http://www.analogplanet.com/content/ces-2016-show-wrap#kK4A6rs1bkj6abul.99


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

With the MQA files downloaded from 2L, one file showed up as 354 on the Meridian 808v6 display panel, similar to what the Brooklyn did. This is a very interesting feature and RH reported on this too in his TAS review of the 808v6. How did it sound? - fabulous to my ears and in my system compared to the other 2L files and hi-res files of mine that are not MQA.

What this portends is great savings in bandwidth for streaming and memory for storage. But these are moot for us audiophiles if the sound quality isn't elevated to a higher level.

With big Warner signing up, it won't be long before the other big ones jump on the bandwagon. With this bombshell announcement, MQA can no longer be ignored. We have been so advised by the press to not get a new digital product today if it does not do MQA.

These are indeed exciting times for audiophiles and musicophiles alike.

Jon.

System : Esoteric K-01, Ayre K5xeMP, Bryston 28B SST2 monoblocks, Vienna Acoustics The Music, Kimber Select, Shunyata Triton and power cords

Interest disclaimer : absolute non-audio industry affiliated full-time ophthalmic surgeon in private practice

 

[CPP]

The statement ''The agreement paves the way for recordings from WMG's ..... world-renowned catalogue...'' seems to indicate from there existing catalogue and not just for future releases

As for your other two questions, who knows?

Once again I ask you to direct me to the AS article about the Explorer 2 and MQA where it is stated that there is not much difference between the MQA performance of the E2 and that of the 808v6.
I have been looking and I can't find it.

I think this is the one radio is talking about. http://www.theabsolutesound.com/articles/world-first-meridian-firmware-update-enables-mqa-playback/