Measuring AC Power Line Noise

willyg said:
Hi Jadedavid,
all are different

He was the Alpha Power Line Meter. I am sort of a newbie so not exactly great at the technical sector. He is proud of his meter and since his power conditioner pass the test with his meter, his conditioner according to him, is doing the job, whilst mine....is just a snake oil/fake/overpriced power extender.


Not sure if you are experiencing problems with the quality of your AC or if you are just trying to be pro-active.
Your friend suppossedly has a power conditioner that does the job. How about asking him to bring it over to your place for a trial on your system?
If it works to your satisfaction then you can get one like his and call it a done deal.
Click to expand...
 
Willy, your in for a long uncomfortable ride. In a general sense you can't hear the noise yourself. The problem is your equipment is affected by it and it responds by performing poorly. That is what people mean by harmful. Poorly may mean you hear buzzing from speakers or you hear buzzing mechanically emanating from transformers inside of your amplifiers or other associated equipment. It may also manifest itself as a hazy glaze over the overall presentation in your music. It may manifest itself as a reduction in the decay of notes causing a truncated or abrupt sound. It may manifest itself as etched fatiguing presentation.

Getting rid of noise is difficult. One of the biggest problems is many times you can hear the filtering device itself harming the music. The trade-off is, does that device do more good than harm making it a benefit in your system overall.

If you have radio interference good shielding may help. Good shielding could mean a run of MC cable from your panel to a metal box in the wall containing your receptacles. All of your cables from your receptacles would be shielded as well as all your interconnects. This in itself can cause some compression of the musical sound itself. And it may not get rid of your radio interference noise.

You can try a filter more specifically designed to clear noises in the radio frequency range at the distribution point where your cables distribute to your gear, then use shielded cables from there into your equipment. However a filter is just that, it is filtering frequencies and that may in itself distort the sound of the music more than the distortion the radio frequency is putting into your power lines or interconnect wires.

I have tried to resolve these type of issues myself. I have talked to many many people. I have never met or heard of a single person who knows how to put scopes on to a power line or into a audio system, hone down on specific frequencies of noise and distortion, then apply accurate filters to clean just those issues.

It's not only the noise on the power lines or what is received through your interconnects. It's the very specific amplifiers, preamps, servers etc in your particular system and how they are responding to that noise and or the filter put in front of them. Worded another way, a class D amplifier will react much differently to a filter than will a tube bass amplifier or a Class A / a b solid-state amp.

All dealers seem to have their favorite filter for whatever their reasons. Don't be too surprised if none of them work for you. Then again you may be incredibly pleased with the results from some of them. If there is any way you can try different filters in your system, that is probably the best way to know if they will actually benefit you in any way.

The only positive no harm done practice I have seen applied to the power in your system is better grounding of your panels, better wire from your panel to your receptacles, better receptacles, better power cords. All of that will help your overall stereo system to sing better. It however may do absolutely nothing to get rid of noise.

I have heard two stereos that are absolutely dead quiet. One has a very large equitech power conditioner feeding everything in the system. The house is in the mountains far away from any commercial facilities. The other system has absolutely no power conditioning and is located in a large residential community. Go figure?

If you have noise that is truly impacting your system and bothering you, I'm sorry to hear it. As I stated in my opening, you're in for a long uncomfortable ride.
 
Thanks for that great reply, Kingrex.

The next thing I'm going to pursue is a correctly done earth grounding.
 
jadedavid said:
willyg said:
Hi Jadedavid,
all are different

He was the Alpha Power Line Meter. I am sort of a newbie so not exactly great at the technical sector. He is proud of his meter and since his power conditioner pass the test with his meter, his conditioner according to him, is doing the job, whilst mine....is just a snake oil/fake/overpriced power extender.





Not sure if you are experiencing problems with the quality of your AC or if you are just trying to be pro-active.
Your friend suppossedly has a power conditioner that does the job. How about asking him to bring it over to your place for a trial on your system?
If it works to your satisfaction then you can get one like his and call it a done deal.
Click to expand...

I am trying to satisfy the OCD in me to do the best within my capability to get the best I could from my AV. I am not even exactly sure unfiltered, if I could audibly hear them noises. However the OCD in me tells me, that his story makes system better. I couldn't exactly afford his power conditioner. But if his meter is the " one " to test if a conditioner can make any difference, I would get that meter and guide my future purchases.

He won't bring his conditioner as well, as for him, it's expensive to carry out and it's rather huge as well. ​
Click to expand...
 
Kingrex said:
Willy, your in for a long uncomfortable ride. In a general sense you can't hear the noise yourself. The problem is your equipment is affected by it and it responds by performing poorly. That is what people mean by harmful. Poorly may mean you hear buzzing from speakers or you hear buzzing mechanically emanating from transformers inside of your amplifiers or other associated equipment. It may also manifest itself as a hazy glaze over the overall presentation in your music. It may manifest itself as a reduction in the decay of notes causing a truncated or abrupt sound. It may manifest itself as etched fatiguing presentation.



Getting rid of noise is difficult. One of the biggest problems is many times you can hear the filtering device itself harming the music. The trade-off is, does that device do more good than harm making it a benefit in your system overall.

If you have radio interference good shielding may help. Good shielding could mean a run of MC cable from your panel to a metal box in the wall containing your receptacles. All of your cables from your receptacles would be shielded as well as all your interconnects. This in itself can cause some compression of the musical sound itself. And it may not get rid of your radio interference noise.

You can try a filter more specifically designed to clear noises in the radio frequency range at the distribution point where your cables distribute to your gear, then use shielded cables from there into your equipment. However a filter is just that, it is filtering frequencies and that may in itself distort the sound of the music more than the distortion the radio frequency is putting into your power lines or interconnect wires.

I have tried to resolve these type of issues myself. I have talked to many many people. I have never met or heard of a single person who knows how to put scopes on to a power line or into a audio system, hone down on specific frequencies of noise and distortion, then apply accurate filters to clean just those issues.

It's not only the noise on the power lines or what is received through your interconnects. It's the very specific amplifiers, preamps, servers etc in your particular system and how they are responding to that noise and or the filter put in front of them. Worded another way, a class D amplifier will react much differently to a filter than will a tube bass amplifier or a Class A / a b solid-state amp.

All dealers seem to have their favorite filter for whatever their reasons. Don't be too surprised if none of them work for you. Then again you may be incredibly pleased with the results from some of them. If there is any way you can try different filters in your system, that is probably the best way to know if they will actually benefit you in any way.

The only positive no harm done practice I have seen applied to the power in your system is better grounding of your panels, better wire from your panel to your receptacles, better receptacles, better power cords. All of that will help your overall stereo system to sing better. It however may do absolutely nothing to get rid of noise.

I have heard two stereos that are absolutely dead quiet. One has a very large equitech power conditioner feeding everything in the system. The house is in the mountains far away from any commercial facilities. The other system has absolutely no power conditioning and is located in a large residential community. Go figure?

If you have noise that is truly impacting your system and bothering you, I'm sorry to hear it. As I stated in my opening, you're in for a long uncomfortable ride.
Click to expand...


Hi Kingrex,

Thanks for taking time to respond.

1. I am not hearing buzz from my system. Thankfully it isn't a severe problem.

It's basically my OCD. Its a case of, oh wow, somebody tells me only their system can give me a closer to perfect sound while mine, are way inferior. Brings up the OCD in me to find out,

1. If that statement is true
2. If that meter is really that reliable and accurate.
3. If that meter is really the benchmark into getting a dead quiet sound.
4. If I need to make my future purchases using that meter.

I am fine with my system right now, but always wondering, how could I make it any better, if there is anymore headroom for it. ​
 
The dinali is a well made for the purpose product
it filters and does not limit power although same say it does anyway.
It works on audio and video devices. I use a few methods to evailuate noise.
Hum is just bad and there really is no acceptable allowance but it's extremely hard to completely remove. Grounding of the equipment is needed but it does not remove line noise.
The type of psu used inside our products maybe effected or not depending on the design and care while being made.
Our front ends be it digital or Anolog is effected line noise and grounding
A bigger issue for amps or even transformer based power condtitioners is signwave distortion called dc on the mains. Transformers below 400 watts are much less effected by it due to the windings wire gauge. Now larger ones get hurt and anyone in the states of they can should wire there amps at 230 volt not 125 why is complex. Now any iso that is made to use 230 input and has a bal 125 output yields best results and this method lowers common mode noise. The dinali does this and more to a level we can hear. A combo is best for all front end where gain is high. But if one had to pic one to try try a dinali. Lastly we don't need a line mouse meter to know there is noise. All power has noise and our homes or even systems make it there.
An IEC socket has by code a part in it to lower noise being Pitney back onto the power lines.
Some feel it hurts there own setup.

Ps I don't sell any product but do know some really work.
 
Can this be done more accurately with a digital oscilloscope? Seems like plenty of options in the $200-$300 range on Amazon.
 
Yes it can but one must know what to look for
The Denali is a simple effective device.
Consider this. I don't make or sell products
And I make all of my own line noise filers.
Try one used it works
In fact since I'll bet they read this they or a dealer might consider a demo one that gets shared among the groups here.
I am willing to bet many would end up buying one.
Next level is Miguel tri point stuff he is the real deal too.
And a great guy too.
 
Alrainbow said:
Yes it can but one must know what to look for
The Denali is a simple effective device.
Consider this. I don't make or sell products
And I make all of my own line noise filers.
Try one used it works
In fact since I'll bet they read this they or a dealer might consider a demo one that gets shared among the groups here.
I am willing to bet many would end up buying one.
Next level is Miguel tri point stuff he is the real deal too.
And a great guy too.
Click to expand...

I'm just curious if a noise issue I have now is related to my power. I need 95VAC output for Japanese electronics.
 
Alrainbow said:
If you live in the continental states it's too high at 115 to 130.
So I'm not sure what your question is
Click to expand...

Yes, I live in the USA but am using Japanese 95VAC electronics via a step down transformer. I seem to have a noise issue and I would like to see if that is on my AC main, is due to the transformer, or possibly something else?
 
Ok if ok let me ask you a question
What type of transformer is it ? A pic and make and model also what device are you using with it. More than one ?
 
vortrex said:
Can this be done more accurately with a digital oscilloscope? Seems like plenty of options in the $200-$300 range on Amazon.
Click to expand...
Yes it can, but only if you have the technical knowledge to use equipment like this on an AC power line. In the R&D lab we would hide the good O-scope probes from the techs. They often made hook-up mistakes and wasted the probe.

It's much better to measure the signal-to-noise ratio at the audio output of your hi-fi system. All this requires is a sensitive DMM.

Well designed hi-fi components can deal with a lot of AC power line noise (that's because they generate a lot of the line noise).
 
While measuring the output of devices can show noise it does not lend itself to why or where it starts
If we measure at the line or both line and psu dc output the given data is more conclusive reg power.
Lastly to Measure at the output is far more complex too.
 
I recently purchased the Trifield EMI (Dirty Electricity) Line meter and its measurements say my expensive power conditioner doesn't filter any line noise. In fact, with some of my home's outlets the Trifield's readings say the conditioner actually increases noise. I've been told that this information is inaccurate because the Trifield measures the wrong frequencies for audio(phile) purposes. What's your opinion?
 
First, with well designed audio equipment power line noise is not a big problem despite the exaggerated claims of some.
But for the most part, the noise that audio equipment has to deal with is (lower frequency)noise and leakage currents flowing thru the wires.
the Trifield EMI meter measures (higher frequency) noise voltage fields in the air.

With regards to noise, the only meaningful measurement is the signal-to-noise ratio at the audio output of your component or system.
 
The more myself and some friends play with power, the more we are finding proper grounding, proper lacing in panels, proper distribution have a massive impact on noise. Even how many circuits you run has a significant impact. Your whole house was probably wired as a home, not as a performance audio/video playback location. Its NEC compliant, to a degree, but that is not always enough to make an environment optimized for noise reduction and audio playback.

In short, your power conditioner can not fix certain kinds of issues. I don't think there is near the noise in peoples houses as they think. Its mostly non optimum wiring. You may even have faulty audio gear. Who knows. It goes way deeper than "but I have 10 awg romex to my rack".
 
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