We have 2912’s and 2812’s. Good speakers, but limiting like most panels.
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Martin Logan CLX ART and other Electrostatics
- Thread starter Calvin
- Start date
We have 2912’s and 2812’s. Good speakers, but limiting like most panels.
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- Thread Author
- #42
Mike many thanks. I'll talk to you soon about these ...
a.wayne
Well-known member
They are very good speakers heard them in a proper setup situation very difficult to get right multiple adjustments to dial them in. also heard them in show situations and they were ok to bad , unfortunately this is not uncommon today , as many other mega systems sounded bad in similar show situations , plenty bad operators running show setups ...
Regards
MtnHam
Member
Not necessarily! I have a pair of the U-545s in a relatively small room (14x17') and I am thrilled with their performance. In a large room you should have a larger model, such as the U-845 which I have in my country residence. The ratio of room size in cubic feet to square inches of radiating surface determines which size panel is right for you.
Sound Labs are considered by many to be the best of all electrostatics. Over the last 40 years, Dr. Roger West has continued to improve the product. While their basic nature has not changed, today's current models are significantly better than ever before. The latest improvement called "Bass Focus" has made a major improvement in the bottom end. Sub woofers are neither needed nor desired.
Sound Labs does no advertising but mainly relies on shows and word of mouth. They are a very small, family run company located in a small rural town in Utah, and built one at a time. I have been a dealer more than 20 years because I am an enthusiast and love the product, the only thing I sell, from my home in the boonies, and a city flat (a 1910 Edwardian) in SF. I do it for love, not profit (there is none!)
There are very few dealers and thus auditions not easy to find. However, Audio Shark members are welcome to visit. If you have questions or just want to chat, my phone # can be found on the Sound Labs website.
Tom
Randy Myers
Well-known member
The one thing I truly wish is that manufactures would include pricing on their website. Soundlab, like McIntosh keeps you guessing. It is very hard for potential customers to even know what they are looking at. This is especially true for an unknown entity like Soundlab. Looking at their website you have no idea if they are a value product such as Magnepan, or an ultra expensive product????
- Thread Author
- #47
I agree. I like to see the MSRP on the manufacture’s website. In my book, it is part of total transparency. I was disappointed when MSB removed theirs from their site.
However, I’ve been researching Sound Lab. I found these price - from a dealer:
Audio Federation - Sound Lab Price List
Randy Myers
Well-known member
Thank you Joe. These should be on the manufacture's website in my view. What is the secret? It is not like a customer will buy them without knowing the price. If I liked what I was seeing and not able to find the price I would not be happy. Especially when there is an almost zero chance of going to a dealer and comparing.
So from the link you sent I would consider them a very expensive product versus something like the Magnepan, for example, which I would consider an ultra value product.
So from the link you sent I would consider them a very expensive product versus something like the Magnepan, for example, which I would consider an ultra value product.
MtnHam
Member
Unfortunately, those prices are extremely out of date, perhaps 2005. Audio Federation is no longer a dealer as they have moved to the SF Bay Area. MSRP is only a suggestion.
- Thread Author
- #50
I think this is part and parcel of the problem of the manufacturer not having the prices on his website. Had they listed them, I wouldn’t have assumed the ones I found were correct. But now these prices - that is negotiating from these prices - is my expectation. When I walk into any dealer and discover their beginning price is actually higher it wouldn’t begin the conversation on a very positive note.
Randy Myers is right. From the customers point of view we need to know the MSRP on the manufacture’s website.
This said, I’m still researching Sound Lab. I’m studying the quality at present. If I discover a model I think I desire, then comes the pricing investigation.
Randy Myers
Well-known member
Joe you doing it the right way; making sure the product might be something you are interest in. However you should not have to then go through another investigation on what the actual MSRP is. That is part and parcel the problem. The price may very well be part of your initial research portion and should not be another process. In my view, especially with more unknown brands, they loose potential customers simply because of the work/process and may very well stick with brands they know.
I was just reading this because I really like the SoundLab speakers. Then, I see it has segued into a convo about MSRP issues. While I agree with Randy and Calvin, I was wondering if anyone just simply emailed SoundLab and asked for a price list?
- Thread Author
- #53
Thanks. I haven’t gotten that far yet. I’m still investigating the speakers themselves. But will go that direction if and when the time comes. This said, Tom, who is a Sound Lab dealer, has been extremely helpful.
Randy Myers
Well-known member
That would be a good next step. Hopefully they would provide one. Not all manufactures will.
CPP
Active member
This is a price list from 2006 of the speakers they made back then Audio Federation - Sound Lab Price List
I've owned just 2 pairs of electrostatics - Quad and Martin Logan.
A couple of years ago, I thought it time to upgrade from my 15+ year old Avantgarde Uno speakers to something more SOA. A friend I met though another forum invited me to listen to his Quad 2905 speakers and I visited expecting to hear a good sound but lacking in volume potential and a shortage of bass. I was proved very wrong on both counts. He likes to turn the volume to a level higher than I listen to and there was no shortage of bass. I was impressed enough to sniff out a used pair of 2905s that had been modified to 2912 spec by Quad, Huntingdon - mainly changing the transformers.
I knew they would not be keepers as their location in the middle of my semi-circular room would be unacceptable as these "barn doors" would obstruct my view unacceptably. However they did sound very good.
I looked around at other ELS speaker that may be more acceptable visually and, after reading reviews and auditioning in a London showroom, bought a pair of ML 13A Expressions - at double the price of new Quads. To say that I was disappointed is an understatement. They just didn’t perform and couldn't match my ancient Avantgardes for sound quality - even with Anthem room correction. They had to go, but I later established the reason they performed badly. These speakers project half their sound backwards (both the panel and the subs) so a rear wall is needed to salvage some of this sound. In my particular room this just doesn’t happen as the "rear wall" is in fact floor-to-ceiling glazing 12 ft behind one speaker and 15 ft behind the other - and at an angle. So why the ML speakers sounded so bad while the Quads sounded so good in the same location is still a mystery. Anyway, the MLs had to go. [Still for sale for any reader in UK!]
So, my old AGs sounded better than brand new MLs! What to do? I happened to notice a pair of circa 2006 Duos for sale so grabbed these at a good price and sold the Unos. Good move. A year later with a totally unjustified itch to further upgrade, I bought a pair of new Avantgarde Duo XDs - a 3 generation “upgrade”. I'm still trying to get them to perform as well as I'm sure they can, but just now they are hard pressed to convince me there's a significant improvement over my old Duos. I'll get there in the end, but Avantgarde make it difficult. The speakers are undeniably (and unnecessarily) too tall for most people's listening position unless tilted forward, and the excellent XD room correction software is totally dependent on the listeners' ears and it’s a nightmare to make the myriad of adjustments for best sound. If only they included a calibrated microphone based measuring facility so owners could see immediately where adjustments should be made, this would make a huge difference and better sounds could be easily obtained.
However, getting back to Martin Logan - if considering this brand, I'd suggest going for the hybrid range (11A, 13A, 15A etc) if you want plenty of bass. My 13As have twin 10" drivers in each speaker and the 15As have twin 12". They do need a rear wall (that's the one behind the speakers) between 2 and 6 feet behind to take advantage of the 50% sound being projected backwards. Then they will sound fantastic. The degree of detail is astonishing with no distortion or closed-in feeling one often gets from box speakers. I'd certainly have kept mine had I the right room. Most people do have the right room, but sadly mine just isn't.
Would I go for ML speakers in favour of Quad? Probably not as the Quad 2912 is £8000 and the 13A is double that price and the 15As over 3 times. The MLs look a lot better but the Quads sound amazing - and remarkably good for a full-range ELS in the bass department, though perhaps not quite up to twin 10 or 12 inch drivers offered by ML. Certainly check out the Quads if your room will take these big ugly slabs without undue complaint.
Or maybe go for these active full-range, tube-powered electrostatics. I've not yet heard them yet, but I'm hoping to when I'm next in the Netherlands! Peter
A couple of years ago, I thought it time to upgrade from my 15+ year old Avantgarde Uno speakers to something more SOA. A friend I met though another forum invited me to listen to his Quad 2905 speakers and I visited expecting to hear a good sound but lacking in volume potential and a shortage of bass. I was proved very wrong on both counts. He likes to turn the volume to a level higher than I listen to and there was no shortage of bass. I was impressed enough to sniff out a used pair of 2905s that had been modified to 2912 spec by Quad, Huntingdon - mainly changing the transformers.
I knew they would not be keepers as their location in the middle of my semi-circular room would be unacceptable as these "barn doors" would obstruct my view unacceptably. However they did sound very good.
I looked around at other ELS speaker that may be more acceptable visually and, after reading reviews and auditioning in a London showroom, bought a pair of ML 13A Expressions - at double the price of new Quads. To say that I was disappointed is an understatement. They just didn’t perform and couldn't match my ancient Avantgardes for sound quality - even with Anthem room correction. They had to go, but I later established the reason they performed badly. These speakers project half their sound backwards (both the panel and the subs) so a rear wall is needed to salvage some of this sound. In my particular room this just doesn’t happen as the "rear wall" is in fact floor-to-ceiling glazing 12 ft behind one speaker and 15 ft behind the other - and at an angle. So why the ML speakers sounded so bad while the Quads sounded so good in the same location is still a mystery. Anyway, the MLs had to go. [Still for sale for any reader in UK!]
So, my old AGs sounded better than brand new MLs! What to do? I happened to notice a pair of circa 2006 Duos for sale so grabbed these at a good price and sold the Unos. Good move. A year later with a totally unjustified itch to further upgrade, I bought a pair of new Avantgarde Duo XDs - a 3 generation “upgrade”. I'm still trying to get them to perform as well as I'm sure they can, but just now they are hard pressed to convince me there's a significant improvement over my old Duos. I'll get there in the end, but Avantgarde make it difficult. The speakers are undeniably (and unnecessarily) too tall for most people's listening position unless tilted forward, and the excellent XD room correction software is totally dependent on the listeners' ears and it’s a nightmare to make the myriad of adjustments for best sound. If only they included a calibrated microphone based measuring facility so owners could see immediately where adjustments should be made, this would make a huge difference and better sounds could be easily obtained.
However, getting back to Martin Logan - if considering this brand, I'd suggest going for the hybrid range (11A, 13A, 15A etc) if you want plenty of bass. My 13As have twin 10" drivers in each speaker and the 15As have twin 12". They do need a rear wall (that's the one behind the speakers) between 2 and 6 feet behind to take advantage of the 50% sound being projected backwards. Then they will sound fantastic. The degree of detail is astonishing with no distortion or closed-in feeling one often gets from box speakers. I'd certainly have kept mine had I the right room. Most people do have the right room, but sadly mine just isn't.
Would I go for ML speakers in favour of Quad? Probably not as the Quad 2912 is £8000 and the 13A is double that price and the 15As over 3 times. The MLs look a lot better but the Quads sound amazing - and remarkably good for a full-range ELS in the bass department, though perhaps not quite up to twin 10 or 12 inch drivers offered by ML. Certainly check out the Quads if your room will take these big ugly slabs without undue complaint.
Or maybe go for these active full-range, tube-powered electrostatics. I've not yet heard them yet, but I'm hoping to when I'm next in the Netherlands! Peter
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I've also been looking over their site. Along with no pricing (which I agree, is maddening), I'm having a hard time making heads or tails of what differentiates their product lines. Turns out there happens to be a Sound Lab dealer in northeast Ohio. I may have to call them to figure all this out. It really shouldn't be this hard.
- Thread Author
- #58
I discussed the quads with Mike. They may work in a different room for me, but probably don't need to be my main system seeing I also listen to some soft rock.
Those tube speakers look beautiful to look at. But I'm not into tubes. Don't get me wrong they sound good, but for me personally they don't work. But those panels are beautiful.
- Thread Author
- #59
From what I've been told, the different SL speakers are sonically the same, the differences being their different type frames (wood, metal [which is more rigid and increases cost]) and the size of their panels in the various models. The larger the room, the larger the panel, etc. Depending on the size of the room one may choose between a 90 vs 45 degree dispersion pattern.
They don't even suggest using a sub unless you play a lot of rock or metal. There is essentially no sweet spot - you can be anywhere in the room and hear the full spectrum of sound...
Again, the above is from what I've been told and not experienced. Hopefully in your call you can determine some other info.
I'm of the same opinion. I've weaned myself off tubes after using them for 10 years or so. Now I listen to far more music, powered by SS and my TV is connected to my hifi, so much better sound without any valve hassle factor.