Michaels HiFi
Well-known member
Hi Randy - I agree with you conceptually. But contractually and legally it is not on our side.
Man says insured $6,000 shipment partially lost after one amplifier fails to arrive
- Thread starter puroagave
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Hi Randy - I agree with you conceptually. But contractually and legally it is not on our side.
Randy Myers
Well-known member
Hopefully, after several conversations with FedEx, I won't ever have to deal with that issue again.
gadawg
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Do they have a legal obligation to get your signature for a package marked signature required? They have forged my name of just about every delivery since 2020. Seems like that would be breaking the rules for sure? What about they forge your signature, drop it off and someone steals it ... who is liable?
George
Michaels HiFi
Well-known member
The contract you sign by sending with them gives them the right to basically do *almost* anything they want.
Typically at most any damages they may be liable for is simply refunding you the cost of shipping and *maybe* pay out if you insured it.
You are shipping with a private carrier. You play 1000% by their rules if you want to ship it with them. Legally speaking if you don't like their rules don't ship with them.
puroagave
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I shipped an RCM to someone that was home, he got the Fedex sms the package was 'delivered.' By the time he got to his front door, in minutes a porch pirate had made off with the box.
The buyer filed a Paypal claim and notified his CC co. to stop payment. PayPal sided with me, I still had to wait 90-days to get my money. The buyer tried to get me to take responsibility for his theft. I always ship w/ direct signature, the Fedex driver left it w/o a direct signature, instead he forged it!
Michaels HiFi
Well-known member
Thankfully here in Texas we have ways of dealing with thieves. It's legal here to defend yourself AND your property.
Last year in Dallas a guy was shot for trying to steal someone's A/C. The press asked the DPD if the homeowner would get charged and the police said in the interview "of course not. You don't steal someone's A/C here in the summer". LOL
I love Texas.
mep
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It's called the Castle Doctrine. We have it in TN too.
Michaels HiFi
Well-known member
There is a difference between those that allow just home (castle and/or stand your ground) and those that allow home AND property. Usually castle doctrine is home only.
Texas is very strong in protecting property rights due to the its history with cattle and such and the constant raids from Mexico.
mep
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"Tennessee’s Castle Doctrine permits the use of deadly force against an intruder who unlawfully and forcibly enters your home, vehicle, or business, removing the duty to retreat if you reasonably believe it is necessary to prevent death or serious bodily injury. This legal protection, often termed "Stand Your Ground" in public spaces, presumes a reasonable fear of imminent danger during a forced entry, provided you are not engaged in unlawful activity."
Michaels HiFi
Well-known member
It listed only three things - home, vehicle or business. AND it stated no need to retreat.
That is limited in scope compared to other states whom have a GREATER protection than simply the things listed in TN.
I can't believe you want to argue over this. I was simply conversing with you agreeing with your point overall.
Using Chat GPT or Google for topics blindly is never a good idea.
We both agree - shoot the bad guys. Just leave it at that.
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gadawg
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But shouldn't Fedex be on the hook then since the signature wasn't obtained? This seems totally jacked up. If you ship something signature required and the fedex driver forges it ... why should anyone other than Fedex be liable?
George
gadawg
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So a quick CoPilot query for FedEx terms and conditions comes up with the following regarding signature required serivce ...
What FedEx Is Obligated to Do Under Their Terms
FedEx’s Service Guide (their binding contract of carriage) says:1. Signature service is a paid, guaranteed service
If you purchase Direct Signature Required, FedEx must:- Obtain a signature from someone at the delivery address
- Record it
- Provide it upon request
2. If FedEx fails to obtain the required signature, they are liable
FedEx’s own terms state that they are liable for loss or misdelivery when they fail to follow required delivery instructions, including signature requirements.This is the key clause:
Failing to collect a signature is failure to follow delivery instructions.
So it would seem that Fedex is liable for forged signatures ... now proving it or getting their attendtion might be an issue but I had an issue a few years back with Apple where one of their store employees re-routed my delivery to an empty apt complex so he could steal my newly ordered laptop. i found out what had happened (long story) and it took 3 months but Apple finally relented and sent me a replacement laptop at their cost so the moral of the story might be just don't give up. I had to get to Tim Cook's office ... maybe Fedex isn't as easy but it seems their terms and conditions require them to deliver the service that was purchased. Am I mssing something?
George
Michaels HiFi
Well-known member
Chat GPT is not ideal to decipher legal liability because it's wrong 70% of the time.
Liable is a slippery word. Usually liable only means they are liable to either refund the shipping costs or possibly the amount you paid extra to insure it for.
Liable is NOT in this case meaning one can pick an arbitrary number something is worth and demand it.
It also says - which chat GPT left out - that they have the right to REFUSE delivery should the driver ever feel unsafe or the location look unsafe. Then they return the package to the original shipper of they hold it at the depot for you to pick It up.
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Not every unreasonable term that a party puts in a contract of adhesion will be enforced by courts, which might find the terms unconscionable, or void as against public policy. How courts would view a particular term will differ based on the facts and by state. I suspect contractual absolution for simple negligence would be upheld, but I'd try them out for intentional misconduct like forging a signature. I think courts might very well say that is unenforceable, plus its quite likely a crime. If it was really expensive gear, I'd give it a shot.
Michaels HiFi
Well-known member
Very true. As I've seen in case after case, it's not what the law says, but rather what the judge feels like doing.
The limitation of liability is a pretty strong protective clause - similar to what airlines use on baggage.
Plus for many people Fed Ex or UPS is not local per their state so it may be ruled small claims is not the right venue pushing it up to higher (much more expensive) courts.