Magico S5 mk2

[Vapor1]

Keith, i'm more familiar with my friend's Magico S5 Mk1 speakers than the newer Mk2's, but from what I understand the S5 Mk1 is perfectly phase coherent in the x-over, and very, but not perfectly time coherent. Whilst Mike commented following his trips to CES and Axpona that the newer Magico S1 Mk2 & S5 Mk2 were "completely and totally seamless". I know Alon focused a lot on driver integration with the new 'Mk2' models. From what I understand, the newer drivers are better behaved across their frequency band which allowed Magico to simplify the x-over (which in turn resulted in a 1db gain in efficiency for the S5 Mk2).

Saying phase coherent is the same as saying proper execution. If you don't have that, the drivers don't sum properly, and your FR is a roller-coaster of a mess. And there's no chance of them being time coherent. The mid and tweet might get close after some time-delay in the crossover network, but the woofers are without a doubt lagging way behind on a step response.

I really don't mean to pick on you, just gotta be careful sometimes repeating things that you might not understand. And I'm not pointing things out because I like/dislike Magico, just that I like accurate statements. But if Magico gained 1db of sensitivity by simplifying their crossover, that would mean their prior crossover was an extremely poor design. It's quite rare to have 1db total of insertion loss from a passive crossover. The speaker may be 1db more sensitive, but it likely came from new drivers with lower moving mass, more motor force, or more compliant suspensions ... not from simplifying the crossover.

 

[Tom Z]

Saying phase coherent is the same as saying proper execution. If you don't have that, the drivers don't sum properly, and your FR is a roller-coaster of a mess. And there's no chance of them being time coherent. The mid and tweet might get close after some time-delay in the crossover network, but the woofers are without a doubt lagging way behind on a step response.

I really don't mean to pick on you, just gotta be careful sometimes repeating things that you might not understand. And I'm not pointing things out because I like/dislike Magico, just that I like accurate statements. But if Magico gained 1db of sensitivity by simplifying their crossover, that would mean their prior crossover was an extremely poor design. It's quite rare to have 1db total of insertion loss from a passive crossover. The speaker may be 1db more sensitive, but it likely came from new drivers with lower moving mass, more motor force, or more compliant suspensions ... not from simplifying the crossover.

I don't claim to be an audio engineer, so my descriptions might not be tecnically correct. Certainly Magico have substantially improved the drivers in the new S series models compared to the S5 Mk1 for example. This commentary by Myles B Astor, quoting the Designer himself, Alon Wolf describing the S7's crossover should however bare scrutiny...

The S7 uses Magico’s tried and true symmetrical elliptical crossover design with very significant change. As a result of the new graphene coating (and increased driver’s stiffness and damping), the driver’s breakup point is beyond the bandpass and allowed Magico to remove the crossover’s electrical traps necessary for controlling driver breakup. In a layman’s terms, this allowed Magico to achieve a stiffer acoustical shelving/atunation using less parts. For instance in the S7, this modification to the crossover results in less loss in the signal path–and trying not to get ahead of myself—just far more information to pass through the speaker. In fact, it may Alon adds, “even add a dB of efficiency or so the speaker’s efficiency rating (for what it's worth, the S7s played louder for the volume setting). It’s not easy to implement said Alon, “because it involves precisely measuring the driver’s performance and using computer simulations and assigning the right values to the crossover parts.”

Only the best possible parts are used to implement the crossover design including Mundorf copper foil chokes and in the most critical position, some custom made to Magico’s specs Mundorf’s newest MCap Supreme EVO Silver/Gold in Oil capacitors. All internal wiring used stranded (as opposed to solid-core in the Q-series) wire sourced from Japan that uses two 10 gauge conductors wound in different geometries for (+) and (-).

 

[Elberoth]

The speaker may be 1db more sensitive, but it likely came from new drivers with lower moving mass, more motor force, or more compliant suspensions ... not from simplifying the crossover.

+1

Add to that the fact, that manufacturers' claims regarding sensitivity and impedance are often just that - claims.

 

[Tom Z]

This commentary by Myles B Astor, quoting the Designer himself, Alon Wolf describing the S7's crossover should however bare scrutiny...

Add to that the fact, that manufacturers' claims regarding sensitivity and impedance are often just that - claims.

Oops, perhaps not.

 

[Elberoth]

Just look at stereophile measuremed sensivity and min impedance and compare that with published data.

Describing speakers as 8 Ohm (or 6 Ohm) impedance where they really are 4 Ohm, or beeing overly optimistic with regards to sensivity (sometimes as much as 3-5dB !) seems sadly the norm.

One of the positive examples here is Wilson Audio, whose specs almost always match the published data.

And to be clear - I'm not talking here about the Magico, as Stereophile has tested only one Magico speaker AFAIR. I'm talking about a general trend.

 

[FlexibleAudio]

Most audiphiles would be aware Richard Vandersteen has been pursuing 1st order crossover design for many years. Magico too have working hard for many years perfecting high order crossovers using proprietory 'Elliptical symmetry crossover' technology, which they say allows them to achieve ideal roll-off characteristics between drivers, using half the number of parts in a normal crossover. Mike's comments however were based on 1st hand listening sessions, not technical white papers or lab tests. His views also parallel what I heard listening to a friend's Vitus/S7/Kronos system over several hours. Just saying it's worthwhile keeping an open mind about high order crossover networks.

Ya, mine too. Some love em; some find em less musical than other designs. I believe the latter is due, at least partially, to a fanatical pursuit of flat FR rather than other stuff that the brain likes more. But hey I could be completely wrong; that's what makes the world go round.

 

[Tom Z]

Ya, mine too. Some love em; some find em less musical than other designs. I believe the latter is due, at least partially, to a fanatical pursuit of flat FR rather than other stuff that the brain likes more. But hey I could be completely wrong; that's what makes the world go round.

Paul, i'm glad you shared that as now I feel I can share that I was underwhelmed when I auditioned a pair of Raidho C2.1 speakers. My concerns ranged from cheap cabinetry, unstable support, lightweight bass to being over-priced and boat anchors to sell (my friend tried to sell a mint pair and heard crickets). And hey, I could be completely wrong, but that's just my take.

 

[FlexibleAudio]

Paul, i'm glad you shared that as I feel I can share that I was underwhelmed when I auditioned a pair of Raidho C2.1 speakers. My concerns ranged from cheap cabinetry, unstable support, lightweight bass to being over-priced and boat anchors to sell (I tried to sell a mint pair and heard crickets). And hey, I could be completely wrong, but that's just my take.

I am certain you are completely right in your observations. I would never challenge such statements given they are wholly relative in nature. One thing to consider though is that some of us really enjoy the sonic characteristics of an anchor being slowly dragged across various ocean bottoms; if done properly the retrieval from the floor by rope or chain has remarkable ambiance and imaging....its truly one of the most emotional experiences I have ever encountered. We are all different. BTW, I actually ordered a pair of Q5's from a dealer here in Chicago but after spending many hours continuing to listen I canceled the order. They did not have cheap cabinetry, unstable support, or lightweight bass; but hey didn't make me happy either. Say high to David for me.

 

[LVB]

Keep in mind that In order to actually maintain a 6db, time/phase coherent slopes, the XO has to be extremely complex. In practice, all these designs, if they are indeed true to their claims, uses many more parts in their XO than a typical 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] or even 4[SUP]th[/SUP] order design. There is an audible cost to that as well. Have a look at a Thiel CS6 XO (and that is just one of the two boards):

 

[Tom Z]

I am certain you are completely right in your observations. I would never challenge such statements given they are wholly relative in nature. One thing to consider though is that some of us really enjoy the sonic characteristics of an anchor being slowly dragged across various ocean bottoms; if done properly the retrieval from the floor by rope or chain has remarkable ambiance and imaging....its truly one of the most emotional experiences I have ever encountered. We are all different. BTW, I actually ordered a pair of Q5's from a dealer here in Chicago but after spending many hours continuing to listen I canceled the order. They did not have cheap cabinetry, unstable support, or lightweight bass; but hey didn't make me happy either. Say high to David for me.

Well enjoy the fishes. Btw, I would have chosen the S5 Mk1 over the Q5 if I had the cash. The S5 Mk2?...whole different ball game. My friend still reads this forum, and posts now and then on Polk audio forum.

 

[Vapor1]

Keep in mind that In order to actually maintain a 6db, time/phase coherent slopes, the XO has to be extremely complex. In practice, all these designs, if they are indeed true to their claims, uses many more parts in their XO than a typical 2[SUP]nd[/SUP] or even 4[SUP]th[/SUP] order design. There is an audible cost to that as well. Have a look at a Thiel CS6 XO (and that is just one of the two boards):

Your logic is flawed. Just because one design which touts 6db slopes has a complex crossover, doesn't mean 6db slopes result in complex crossovers. Thiels issue in that design was use of hard cone/dome drivers, which have out of band resonances that need to be notched out in order to hit their target transfer functions. That goes back to my point above of how to properly execute a 6db slope design, and how important proper driver choice is.

Also, you really don't have any clue what the parts on that board are doing. Without a schematic, assuming a lot of parts = complex design is another logical fallacy. There could be many caps paralleled to make a higher value, or many bypass caps. They could even be running inductors in series to reach a desired value, same for resistors (or to give higher power handling).

We build a few shallow slope, time aligned speakers. But only because all the t's were crossed and i's dotted before the design took physical form. As a result they all have incredibly simple crossover, ie 4 parts for a 2-way MTM.

 

[Mike]

That's what I found. The mk2 S5 is such a big jump in performance. Someone going from mk1 to mk2 (or better yet, to S7) will be very pleased with the performance improvements across the board. If I had to single out what specifically is improved, to my ears, it's the midrange and top end. Also greatly improved from a driver integration standpoint. The handoff is seemless. The mk2 speakers seem even more dynamic as well with superb bass. Not sure if that's a result of their improvement efficiency or not, but they have a greater dynamic ease about them.

My dilemma, to be frank, is whether to go tubes and give up a little bass slam to gain great midrange and top end liquidity or go solid state, get the slam, but not the same liquidity and sonic richness in the mids and highs (I'm making a generalization here, of course I know there are great solid state amps which are very liquid sounding). In a perfect world, I would have VAC or CJ or CAT and Pass or Vitus or Soulution.

Don't laugh, but I still think the JC1's could be the perfect "tweener" amp in the modestly priced range.

 

[bthomas9]

A VAC pre and JC-1's ...interesting


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[FlexibleAudio]

Yes they are extremely linear. More so than any speaker I have ever heard (whether that is a good thing is in the eye of the beholder).

The top end is something I find remarkable but am one of those whom fears I would not want to live with them over the long term. I guess I must be counted as one of those with sensitive (bad?) ears at the higher frequencies. I never liked Wilson's high end until this show and thought what they did with the new silk tweeter in the Alexx was absolutely wonderful. I have always loved the YG top end (am not how there forged core architecture works but to me its sounds very different than this speaker). I obviously like Raidho's. I think if you like the Raidho highs you should carefully audition this speaker because they are certainly not the same things.

I found the mkii to be a double down on the Magico philosophy of extreme linearity and resolution rather than a move back toward a musically "tuned" sound like that used by many designers. If you like that you will love these speakers like no other. They are truly unique.

Well enjoy the fishes. Btw, I would have chosen the S5 Mk1 over the Q5 if I had the cash. The S5 Mk2?...whole different ball game. My friend still reads this forum, and posts now and then on Polk audio forum.

My views on the S5 ii's are above from my earlier post: a double-down of the "magico" thang imo. If ya dig it ya dig it. Not sure why Alon would do anything but improve the same flavor given the tremendous success of his products. For what its worth, when I spent a lot of time comparing the S5 to the Q5 I preferred the Q5 but that's not a surprise; I wouldn't expect us to be simpatico, all things considered.

 

[FlexibleAudio]

Yes they are extremely linear. More so than any speaker I have ever heard (whether that is a good thing is in the eye of the beholder).

The top end is something I find remarkable but am one of those whom fears I would not want to live with them over the long term. I guess I must be counted as one of those with sensitive (bad?) ears at the higher frequencies. I never liked Wilson's high end until this show and thought what they did with the new silk tweeter in the Alexx was absolutely wonderful. I have always loved the YG top end (am not how there forged core architecture works but to me its sounds very different than this speaker). I obviously like Raidho's. I think if you like the Raidho highs you should carefully audition this speaker because they are certainly not the same things.

I found the mkii to be a double down on the Magico philosophy of extreme linearity and resolution rather than a move back toward a musically "tuned" sound like that used by many designers. If you like that you will love these speakers like no other. They are truly unique.

That's what I found. The mk2 S5 is such a big jump in performance. Someone going from mk1 to mk2 (or better yet, to S7) will be very pleased with the performance improvements across the board. If I had to single out what specifically is improved, to my ears, it's the midrange and top end. Also greatly improved from a driver integration standpoint. The handoff is seemless. The mk2 speakers seem even more dynamic as well with superb bass. Not sure if that's a result of their improvement efficiency or not, but they have a greater dynamic ease about them.

My dilemma, to be frank, is whether to go tubes and give up a little bass slam to gain great midrange and top end liquidity or go solid state, get the slam, but not the same liquidity and sonic richness in the mids and highs (I'm making a generalization here, of course I know there are great solid state amps which are very liquid sounding). In a perfect world, I would have VAC or CJ or CAT and Pass or Vitus or Soulution.

Don't laugh, but I still think the JC1's could be the perfect "tweener" amp in the modestly priced range.

Bi-amp with this on top: Novacron Mk. 3.2 Limited Edition

and this on bottom: Soulution 501

Unvarnished clarity that happens to include two fastest amps on the planet (or at least real close; no dis to Spectral). Transformer-less tubes on Magicos would be something (if that extreme resolution is your thing). Problem has always been bottom. The 501 will get er done and keep up.

 

[Mike]

Bi-amp with this on top: Novacron Mk. 3.2 Limited Edition

and this on bottom: Soulution 501

Unvarnished clarity that happens to include two fastest amps on the planet (or at least real close; no dis to Spectral). Transformer-less tubes on Magicos would be something (if that extreme resolution is you thing). Problem has always been bottom. The 501 will get er done and keep up.

Gain matching?

Those Novacron's are superb....but so is Soulution.

 

[KeithR]

And to be clear - I'm not talking here about the Magico, as Stereophile has tested only one Magico speaker AFAIR. I'm talking about a general trend.

I noticed that the other day - hasn't been a Stereophile review of a Magico since 2010 (Q5)! Anyone know the reason?

JV used to rave about Odyssey with Magico back in the day on the lower end of the scale.

 

[madfloyd]

I noticed that the other day - hasn't been a Stereophile review of a Magico since 2010 (Q5)! Anyone know the reason?

JV used to rave about Odyssey with Magico back in the day on the lower end of the scale.

Political no doubt.

 

[FlexibleAudio]

Mike, Nelson makes (you sell) the best gain matcher on the planet .

 

[Tom Z]

My views on the S5 ii's are above from my earlier post: a double-down of the "magico" thang imo. If ya dig it ya dig it. Not sure why Alon would do anything but improve the same flavor given the tremendous success of his products. For what its worth, when I spent a lot of time comparing the S5 to the Q5 I preferred the Q5 but that's not a surprise; I wouldn't expect us to be simpatico, all things considered.

Welll in my view you haven't heard the S5 Mk2's until you've heard them with Vitus Signature Series gear & either Siltech or Jorma cables. I got to hear the similar S7's with Vitus SM-102 mono's, a Vitus MP-L102 linestage, Masterpiece series transport/dac & Kronos reference tt, and was floored by the musicality and realism of the music.

Re: the Q5's, good luck driving them with your Soulution 501's. They would need the big 711 stereo amp to make them sing.