Lyra Kleos versus Delos

Harris4crna said:
I currently have the Kleos gain set at 66db. Tried higher, but just sounded grainy.
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ugh...i have yet to hear any phonostage, SS or tube that sounds good and remains transparent pushing 60+ db of gain. the total equation involves your line stage gain, input sensitivity of your amp and efficiency of the speakers themselves.
 
I set it at 66db per the recommendation of the Simaudio 810lp manual. It states the following: When you are using a moving coil cartridge, you will need to increase the gain level setting. This is a general rule for determining the gain of a MC cartridge: For a low output MC cartridge (0.7mV and lower), set the gain level to at least 66dB; medium output MC (0.7mV to 1.5mV) set the gain level to 60dB; for a high output MC (> 1.5mV) set the gain level to 54dB. Since every audio system is different, these are just approximated values.

This why i set it at 66db. I can try a lower setting and see.
 
puroagave said:
i looked it up, 9 db...that's really low.
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Puro, so what does this mean? Ill need to use more gain since my line stage is set at 9db? I am using transparent XLR for my IC through out if this makes a difference. Decreasing to 60db, i need to increase volume on the 740p to 65 which is 10 higher than i usually play it.
 
i'll revise my statement and say the 740p is on the low side. the standard kleos (.5mv) is a med output cart it doesn't sound like you're necessarily lacking gain. i would go with the lowest phono gain setting you can get away with and make up the difference with the line stage, it will mitigate excess noise coming from your phono set up. 9 db of line stage gain dosen't give much to play with, my system likes 15 db at minimum, my CAT has a whopping 27 db.
 
Thanks Puro, i got Tf at 1.72g, 420ohms and gain of 60db. Turned up the line stage to make up difference and its sounds purely magnificent. Time to play some tunes.
 
Harris4crna said:
Puro, so what does this mean? Ill need to use more gain since my line stage is set at 9db? I am using transparent XLR for my IC through out if this makes a difference. Decreasing to 60db, i need to increase volume on the 740p to 65 which is 10 higher than i usually play it.
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Some preamps with lower resolution volume steps have a "sweet" spot on the volume control which is not a good thing imo, as the sound quality should be the same whether the volume is on 10 or 85. The volume number on the pre amp should make no difference to the sound quality and that would be true with your Sim pre amp as it is well designed.

Just select the phono gain that sounds the best, whether that be at 60db or 66db. Since you have done all your listening at 66db, I would leave it there until you get a handle on the changes you have made with loading and tracking weight.

cheers
 
Guess this is what makes this hobby fun. The art of fine tuning. I will say the Delos made the fine tuning easy. The Kleos is much more sensitive for sure. Love to see some of your guys setup. Thanks.
 
puroagave said:
i looked it up, 9 db...that's really low.
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Not as low as the 6dB gain of my ARC Ref 5 SE. I don't know what phono stages you have heard that don't sound good or transparent when set at 60dB of gain, but that has to be in the context of your system. The worst combination you can have is a very low output cartridge and a phono stage without enough gain to drive it properly. Yeah, it will be quiet without enough gain and your volume turned down low, but it will be dead sounding. But then, you are hooked on SUTs aren't you?
 
Harris4crna said:
Puro, so what does this mean? Ill need to use more gain since my line stage is set at 9db? I am using transparent XLR for my IC through out if this makes a difference. Decreasing to 60db, i need to increase volume on the 740p to 65 which is 10 higher than i usually play it.
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the 740p uses a DVC of some sort to control volume. your manual should state the numerical value on the display that translates to unity gain. if your usual listening volume is at or below unity gain then you have plenty of head room. an experiment you can try is lowering the phono gain another step, you'll need to raise the level to a higher numerical value on the 740p for the same volume but it may yield a slightly better (or worse ) s/n of your phono setup.

today's line stages are mostly low-gain and optimized for digital sources, its part of the current obsession with improving specs. high gain line stages really benefit phono user most. my pet peeve of current SOTA gear is the lack of adjustable line stage gain and adjustable input sensitivity (power amps).
 
mep said:
Not as low as the 6dB gain of my ARC Ref 5 SE. I don't know what phono stages you have heard that don't sound good or transparent when set at 60dB of gain, but that has to be in the context of your system. The worst combination you can have is a very low output cartridge and a phono stage without enough gain to drive it properly. Yeah, it will be quiet without enough gain and your volume turned down low, but it will be dead sounding. But then, you are hooked on SUTs aren't you?
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Have you heard the same phono stage that sounds better at 60 db of gain than 45? I never have. with the CAT I have the option of using a SUT or not. with the Koetsu at .4mv I have enough clean gain. I've rewired my SUTs and lowered them to 10 db for my Clavis DC (.25mV), the CAT will still take the Clavis straight in w/o the SUT and the noise floor is still bearable.
 
puroagave said:
Have you heard the same phono stage that sounds better at 60 db of gain than 45? I never have. with the CAT I have the option of using a SUT or not. with the Koetsu at .4mv I have enough clean gain. I've rewired my SUTs and lowered them to 10 db for my Clavis DC (.25mV), the CAT will still take the Clavis straight in w/o the SUT and the noise floor is still bearable.
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First of all, I haven't owned any MC cartridges in the last 100 years or so that would work with only 45dB of gain without a boatload of noise so I really can't answer your first question. I owned a CAT preamp before, and I didn't find it's performance with LOMC cartridges to be the joy that others who love CAT do. I can't imagine that the CAT will be quiet with a .25mV cartridge because I know from experience it won't. I never thought the phono section in the CAT was all it was touted to be. I also never liked the course steps on the volume pot. Unlike Goldilocks, it's damn near impossible to find 'just right' on the volume control. I was happy to move the CAT on down the road and never look back.

I am hoping to get a chance to hear the Zesto phono stage in my system and it does use SUTs. I heard a full Zesto system at RMAF 2014 and was mightily impressed.
 
Mark, i take it you never owned a high-gain line stage or owned an ARC SP-11. I had one in the house recently, one of the best full-featured preamps I've had the pleasure of owning: only 46 db of phono gain and 29 db of line stage gain - it was optimized for carts down to .3mV or so. Which version of the CAT did you own? the Mk I & II was a different animal. the MK III is essentially the same circuit as the current Ultimate sans the defeatable internal SUT, adjustable line stage gain and dual mono pots.

I owned the Zesto andros, it wasnt bad but the Rouge Ares I compared it to out-boogied it for a lot less coin.
 
puroagave said:
Mark, i take it you never owned a high-gain line stage or owned an ARC SP-11. I had one in the house recently, one of the best full-featured preamps I've had the pleasure of owning: only 46 db of phono gain and 29 db of line stage gain - it was optimized for carts down to .3mV or so. Which version of the CAT did you own? the Mk I & II was a different animal. the MK III is essentially the same circuit as the current Ultimate sans the defeatable internal SUT, adjustable line stage gain and dual mono pots.

I owned the Zesto andros, it wasnt bad but the Rouge Ares I compared it to out-boogied it for a lot less coin.
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Depends on what you want to call high-gain. I owned the CAT and it was the MKII. I owned a fully tricked out Counterpoint SA-5.1 preamp which had selectable gain from 12dB to 18dB. Tell me more about the Rogue phono section. In what meaningful way did it sound better than the Zesto?
 
740p manual states: The rotary “volume” control determines the gain setting, which ranges from ‘0.0dB’ (no output) to ’80.0dB’ (full output). This control does not function like a typical volume: When you rotate the dial, either clockwise to raise the volume or counter- clockwise to lower the volume, you are actually engaging a precision optical encoder which selects very high quality metal-film resistors that the audio signal passes through. The result is a proprietary
gain circuit, called M-eVOL2 that doesn’t degrade the audio signal regardless of the setting, unlike all potentiometer based circuits. Since this circuitry operates in a fully balanced differential mode, no noise is introduced to the audio signal. Furthermore, there are no actual moving parts, so this technology has a minimum life expectancy of one million rotations.

So, having an optimal loudness (no need to go louder) of the volume control set at 65 at current gain at 60db set in the phonostage should be fine.
 
After tweaking loading, gain and changing TF i am convinced Kleos is better than my old Delos. Just sensitive and need to be tweaked to get it right.
 
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